Every pro Palestinian protestor has experienced some form of awareness suppression and content removal. They have known this was a thing long before anyone else did.
Same thing happened during 9/11. Muslims saw suppression, bullying by the police and no one covered it. Then the tables turned on maga republicans after j6.
I’m too stupid to navigate this topic in anything other than a crude and adolescent way, however I think it could be tricky for pro-palestinians because they can fall easily into the trap of using party slogans used by proscribed organisations.
My understanding of Hamas is that they are not considered a legitimate army, but if they were they would be guilty of an insurmountable number of war crimes (not unlike the IDF as many would say). Showing support for such things is beyond reasonable accepted discourse in my home country.
> it could be tricky for pro-palestinians because they can fall easily into the trap of using party slogans used by proscribed organisations
Any excuse is good when you have power and want to justify repression. For example they tried to claim that the slogan "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" is genocidal. Quite a jump. (Meanwhile, the Likud's platform says "from the river to the sea there will be only Israel" but that's fine).
> if they were they would be guilty of an insurmountable number of war crimes
They killed much less civilians than the IDF did, and they are not invaders nor illegal occupiers of someone else's country. What is acceptable or unacceptable is decided by those who are in power, and they are currently protecting a country whose prime minister in charge is wanted for crimes against humanity.
> they tried to claim that the slogan "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" is genocidal.
There is no other meaning. The slogan is a call to kill every single Israeli. That is literally what it means. Where will the israelis be when palestine is free from the river to the see? The hamas charter still to this day calls to kill every single israeli. This is the problem. You yourself dont even know what it is you are calling for, then you get mad when others point out that you are using slogans that call for a genocide. For the record I think Likud is awful as well, but at least in the US there are no serious israel supporters using the israeli version of the slogan.
As far as counting deaths that doesnt work because Hamas is getting their own civilians killed on purpose while israel is doing the opposite. If hamas had a nuke it would wipe israel off the map, israel does have nukes and the palestinians are more numerous than ever. The palestinaians are deeply oppressed, but theyre also raging assholes who would love nothing more than to not just oppress but kill every isreali. Being oppressed doesnt make them right.
> Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine.
Straight from the 2017 version, calling for the genocide of israelis. I think the israeli version of the slogan is genocidal too, as I said originally.
> The slogan is a call to kill every single Israeli. ... Where will the israelis be when palestine is free from the river to the see?
Oh well, this is just unbelievable. So by your logic the Likud platform, where it claims Israeli sovereignty over the whole Palestine ("from the Jordan to the sea") is a call to kill every single Palestinian? So Israel is ruled since thirty years by a genocidal party? And have you denounced this left and right?
> For the record I think Likud is awful as well, but at least in the US there are no serious israel supporters using the israeli version of the slogan.
I register that when you talk about a protest slogan calling for "freedom" you call it "genocidal"; when talking about the governing party in Israel, whose leader is under arrest order for crimes against humanity, it's just "awful". So is Likud, Israel's ruling party, genocidal or not? Does that make Israel a genocidal state or not? Does it make the US politicians that support the current Israeli government genocidal or not?
By your logic the proposal to ethnically cleanse the Gaza strip, made by Trump and endorsed by Netanyahu (or more probably the other way around), is also a call to kill every single Palestinian in it? And this is not a slogan, it is literally a proposal by the president of the most powerful country on earth. Did you denounce it?
But you logic is flawed.
What if Israel is dissolved and becomes a different state and Jews and Arabs are both unharmed and free to live in it? Wouldn't then Palestine be free, without the need to kill anyone?
> The hamas charter still to this day calls to kill every single israeli
This is a mystification. Even the original Hamas charter (the one that was replaced by a much tamer one) explicitly said that under the protection of Islam, Muslims, Christians and Jews would be free to leave in peace with each other.
> What if Israel is dissolved and becomes a different state and Jews and Arabs are both unharmed and free to live in it?
What if pigs fly? You know this was the original plan they tried right?
> is Likud, Israel's ruling party, genocidal or not?
I think they probably will be in the future, but right now they could be enacting a genocide and they are not. Hamas is unable to enact a genocide and empirically it really seems like they would do it asap.
> proposal to ethnically cleanse the Gaza strip, made by Trump... genocide
Obviously but just like most of the shit he says its just a distraction, not something he actually meant. Not that thats a good thing, it just is what it is.
The problem with the "freedom" desired in the slogan is that it is the freedom to kill every israeli. You can pretend that Hamas wants peace with israel or would be open to a one state solution that gives the jews any amount of power/freedom but we both know that is not true. The same is true of the Israelis with respect to the palestinians. Everyone in this conflict has acted horrendously and nobody has any reason to work with anyone else so it does unfortunately seem to me that at least cultural genocide if not full blown racial genocide will be the eventual resolution here. The big question is which group will the genocider and which the genocidee. I wont lie, the Israeli cultural values align more closely to my own so not so hard for me to pick a side. Of course Id love a peaceful resolution but it really seems impossible to me.
Oh why, do you think that people living together in peace and freedom is as physically impossible as pigs flying? Guess what, most people disagree with you, and that's why the protesters chant what they chant. And now disprove this.
> I think [Likud] will probably be [genocidal] in the future
So you tell me, pacific protesters chanting "from the river to the sea" are genocidal, while the party that has the same in its platform, has bombed tens of thousands of civilians and is colonising the West Bank, isn't?
> Obviously but just like most of the shit he says its just a distraction
So you tell me, pacific protesters chanting for freedom are genocidal, the prime minister bombing his neighbours and the president of the most powerful nation in the world declaring they want an ethnic cleansing do so just as a distraction?
Listen, are you for real? Because if you're not purposefully being dishonest, then there's some serious cult shit going on here.
Anyway, that's the end of the conversation for me.
> Guess what, most people disagree with you, and that's why the protesters chant what they chant. And now disprove this.
And the protesters are naive idiots, which is why I called out the original comment.
> protesters chanting "from the river to the sea" are genocidal, while the party that has the same in its platform, has bombed tens of thousands of civilians and is colonising the West Bank, isn't?
Likud could be committing a genocide right now but they are not. Thats why I dont consider them genocidal right now, pretty simple. The side that actually uses the river to the sea chant with any regularity could not commit a genocide right now.
> So you tell me, pacific protesters chanting for freedom are genocidal, the prime minister bombing his neighbours and the president of the most powerful nation in the world declaring they want an ethnic cleansing do so just as a distraction?
Yes? Not sure why this is so hard to understand. Trump loves attention. When he isnt getting it he just says random shit that comes to mind until its back on him. The israeli government has not in any way endorsed trumps plans for what thats worth.
> they can fall easily into the trap of using party slogans used by proscribed organisations.
It's taking it way to far to suppress speech - political speech, the most important speech - for slipping in the 'wrong' slogans.
> My understanding of Hamas is that they are not considered a legitimate army, but if they were they would be guilty of an insurmountable number of war crimes
While Hamas commits many horrors and is oppressive and awful, I don't think the ligitimate army argument holds water:
If Hamas acted like a legitimate army under the laws of war, they'd be massacred in an instant. It would require them to dress in uniforms so they can be identified, and only fight against the enemy's military. Hamas has some rifles and RPGs and a few rockets. Their enemy has tanks, fighter planes, etc etc etc. If Hamas wanted to be a legitimate army, their only option would be to immediately disband.
The laws of war seem written by large powers to protect their interests. There are legitimate 'freedom-fighting' insurgents out there who also are limited in their ability to be a 'legitimate army'.
> (not unlike the IDF as many would say). Showing support for such things is beyond reasonable accepted discourse in my home country.
So can people show support for either Israel (it's not the IDF, it's a political entity - Israel) or Hamas (also a political entity)? How do they talk about the war?
Hamas isn't an army, it's the political party voted into office to administer Gaza. The problem is a subset of it, the Al-Qassam Brigades, that conduct asymmetric warfare. If that were shutdown and violence were disavowed, that would give them political respect and would cease giving Palestinians a bad name that holds them back from the atrocities committed against them from being recognized.
> that would give them political respect, cease giving Palestinians a bad name that holds them back from the atrocities committed against them from being recognized
Yes the respect Fatah has. Look at the strong words of condemnation from world leaders for the daily pogroms Palestinians are subjected to in the West Bank. Look at the apartheid being enforced there, look at the demolished houses and villages, at the hundreds of illegal settlements, at the ethnic cleansing going on by the day.
Hamas is an excuse as good as any. In fact, given its overwhelming power and impunity, Israel makes and chooses its counterparts. If a Palestinian leader looks too good, they can kill him. If the protests are too peaceful, they can shoot a few people until they turn a bit violent. Hamas was promoted to weaken Fatah. And so on.
Hamas has proposed multiple times long term ceasefires (10 years) and has recognised the 1967 borders. All these proposals went completely ignored and mostly unmentioned in the Western media because that's not useful to Israel.
The reason is as you say: If someone gets too popular or a leadership looks too promising, Israel shoots them or compromises them. Fatah is seen as corrupt and liberal group too conflicted to create any meaningful movements for Palestinians. Hamas is seen as more sincere movement and has stronger support. They are primarily a social movement with a military wing. And so they are a stronger threat to Israel than Fatah could be. Fatah for its part is compromisable and pliable where as Hamas is a conservative strict disciplined movement with no hope for Israel to corrupt them.
> Hamas has broken ever cease fire since they took power.
Israel has broken every ceasefire, though US media tends to treat Israeli attacks as hiccups and challenges to ceasefires involving Israel and those on the other side as more serious. This is similar to the way that the same linguistic cause/effect separation (sometimes termed the “exonerative tense” or “exonerative mood”) frequently used to deflect responsibility for domestic police violence to Israeli military actions, but not to their opponents on any side.
Oh, I thought Hamas and Palestinians are not the same? So they are?
Interestingly in WW2 a lot of Germans helped to save Jews.
Exactly zero gazans helped to save an hostage. Some civilians even held hostages at home themselves.
Hamas is very different than the Nazis. They are holding hostages in a war - they want the hostages to live or the hostages have no value. The Nazis were trying to murder as many people as possible.
Violent resistance isn't a successful strategy at this point because the Axis of Evil has already won. The correct strategy is to take the moral high ground with nonviolent, peaceful, moral courage in forums other than where there are snipers. It will be risky but the same-old, same-old isn't working.
Violence doesn't win political credibility when you're extremely weak, and not in control of the media narrative to manufacture consent or justifications for aid and arms shipments.
Same thing happened during 9/11. Muslims saw suppression, bullying by the police and no one covered it. Then the tables turned on maga republicans after j6.