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Dang I wish these guys would use a nice, bold headline to demonstrate the value prop! The website doesn't say much more than we already know.

"A motorized standing desk for just $399." would've grabbed my interest right away.


Sorry about that, the website isn't quite finished yet. In our next iteration, we'll sort all that out. Thanks for your feedback!!


Thanks for the feedback, going to add some new messaging to the header shortly.


Yeah he uses a lot of marketing speak.

But as you can see my article, I don't recommend any of his products. I don't really believe in his whole mycotoxin kick.

But it doesn't mean you can't learn from other things he's saying!

High fat diets have been heavily researched and are generally regarded as safe and healthy. See here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/high-fat-diet-healthy-safe/


It's not a perfect 1:1 replacement as you can't just drink Bulletproof Coffee to get all your nutrients. But, start your day with a cup of it to boost nutrition, focus, and satiety. Follow with a normal lunch and dinner.


Did you think this article was scummy? Probably not, it provided some real value and insight. And guess what, it was a piece of content marketing for his new book. I was pleasantly surprised at the end with his CTA (call-to-action).

Marketing is just finding a way to communicate your value proposition to your target market. Yes, there are plenty of scummy ways out there -- but some awesome real-world examples come from our favorite tech startups like 37signals (e.g. their books) and Atlassian (e.g. their git tutorials).

That's the great thing about the inbound/content marketing movement these days -- you are typically not paying people to read it, so you first and have to step back and think, "what can I write about that would grab the genuine interest of people I want to reach?"

Just some thoughts from a product marketing manager at a startup in NYC.


In all honesty, I starting reading the article because I was lured in by the title (even though it's a bit link baity). Why are these people not normal, and why am I one of them?

Then I started reading, realized it was about developers marketing. I have never really considered marketing my strong suit so I continued reading.

When he started talking about his book, I felt as though I had been tricked, and I got a little mad. To me, it cheapened the article, and made me feel as if the author didn't really care about informing people, but rather was just looking to promote his book. At that instant I knew he had posted this link on Hacker News not to be informative, but to prey on developers with weak marketing skills, and get them to pay for his book. I normally wouldn't comment on something like this, but since you said so anyway, I would say this is an unethical advertisement because it pretends to be an article, but it actually was an advertisement. If he had said right out, "I have written a book on marketing for developers, here is a sample, and if you are interested you can purchase it here", then I might have been more inclined to purchase it (of course the book isn't even finished yet, so there would be no way to buy it anyway even if I was interested, but that's a separate issue I won't get into here.) Rather, instead the article left a bad taste in my mouth and reinforced my opinion of marketing as something scummy I wouldn't want to get involved with.


At that instant I knew he had posted this link on Hacker News not to be informative, but to prey on developers with weak marketing skills, and get them to pay for his book.

OK, the fact that you would use a term like "prey on" in this context tells me that we probably have radically different worldviews, so there may be no point to this exchange, but...

I would say this is an unethical advertisement because it pretends to be an article, but it actually was an advertisement

There's no particular reason a piece of content can't be intended to be both legitimately informative, AND serve to drive awareness of something your selling. In this case, ask yourself this: If you took away the last paragraph or two of the article, would the rest of it still have been informative? Would you have gotten value from it? If so, how is it not an informative article, just because of the blurb tacked onto the end, sharing information about the author's book? Especially when the book is relevant to the audience who would likely discover that article?

OK, I get that a lot of developers just have a sort of general aversion to "all things commercial". Hell, I used to be that way to some extent, but yet I always found marketing fascinating, and now that I run a startup, I find marketing essential, so maybe my views have shifted a bit. Anyway, I understand - to a point - that a lot of us find that commercial interests take away from some notion of essential "purity" or whatever when it comes to technical content. But to call this kind of content marketing "unethical" is a bit extreme, IMO.


If it has value on its own without the paragraphs about buying his book, surely it would have just as much value if the author moved the final paragraphs to the front, and clearly identified it as an advertisement for his book. The fact that he did not do that indicates that he thought less people would read it if they knew it was an advertisement right from the start. So then the author thought he would have to trick people if he wanted to get them to read the advertisement, so he sneaked it in at the end. This intent to deceive is what I am calling unethical. Now, sure this could be an effective technique, but the kind of deceit and trickery usually involved in such marketing leaves me with a bad taste.


The point is, there isn't a binary distinction between "it's an advertisement" and "it's informative content". It's a legitimately informative and interesting article, whether or not he mentions his book. So what difference does it make if he mentions the book at the beginning, or the end, or not at all?

And putting that stuff at the bottom has nothing to do with being tricky, or sneaky, or unethical. It just makes more sense to mention the book after the author has demonstrated some credibility through the content in the earlier part of the article.


The message, whether informative, promotional, or both, ultimately needs to reach its audience. On both counts, this article failed to reach tbirdz and likely many others.

It wouldn't have been too much trouble to bring those skeptics back to the conversation by adding a short disclaimer closer to the beginning of the article. So why not do it? If the article is going to be both informative and promotional, some will want that expectation to be set right from the beginning. And if the informative bits can stand on their own merit, there's no risk to the promotional side in adding the early disclaimer. (IMO, it's not an unreasonable request, and not without precedent.)


Maybe I'm just too cynical a person but I thought his CTA was awkward and couldn't help thinking about how giving his readers 'homework' was a great marketing technique to automatically place him in a mentor position in the minds of his readers, helping his readers justify buying his book.

But I get your point. This wasn't a scummy piece of marketing and I found it through a very neutral channel.


Hey, original author here.

I appreciate your perspective. Which CTA, specifically did you find awkward?

(As a side-note: I've had other posts with similar traffic and same landing URL. This one outperformed them by quite a bit. The launch list itself grew 2x)


It was the homework assignment. You might not have intended it this way but I saw it as you asserting yourself as a credible teacher before earning it.

I did enjoy your article and have given you my email in hopes that I gain some valuable insight. I have always been very skeptical about sales and marketing but have tried to be open to its value. My wife has a more neutral view and can sometimes soften my stance on it.


Cool, thanks. I appreciate your honesty.


Definitely the next feature I'd like to add in. I wanted to get the MVP out as quickly as possible before iterative improvements became crippling to shipping :)


I find it odd that the hacker community likes to completely disregard non-technical people[1]. It's situations exactly like this where it would bring a huge amount of value to have someone dedicated to marketing/community outreach and evangelism for the product.

Even though it's a technical project, explained well and with patience even the most non-technical person could wrap their head around it and develop a plan to get it to market.

Being both a dev and a marketer, I've found there are two, entirely separate brainstorming mindsets: product design and development, and product marketing and execution. It is incredibly taxing and inefficient to frequently switch between these two mindsets, which is why I believe most developed companies evolve into having two distinct departments: product development and product marketing. I'm working on my own startup now in RoR doing exactly this (i.e. trying to switch between the two roles frequently) with much frustration. Luckily I have a great business partner that is entirely focused on strategy that can knock some sense into me when I become too bogged down in the development/coding thought pattern.

Going to a business school with essentially zero CS majors, I personally know a dozen people that would be interested in jumping in on a project like this, not even for the lucrative rewards of success but the experience of working on such a project and jumping into the tech world.

Just some thoughts...

[1]: Most recent example I've stumbled upon: "No marketers/MBAs/designers/unicorns/whatever." Source: http://hackerho.us/


The ultimate is when you get a marketer who understands what APIs are used for. For example, I can say that the OP should probably consider pasting his sample code higher up on the page in a more prominent position. Show the end user he can succeed easily with the product and he won't mind clicking the sign-up button. Marketers these days also need to know where you can find these users. They should have an account here, SO, SlashDot, r/programming, Quora and so on.


I'd love to have someone dedicated to to marketing/community outreach and evangelism. If someone with those skills wants to join me on the journey, send me an email (in profile).


Yeah... You couldn't pay me the 1700/month to live in that house. Sounds like a bunch of poseurs and wannabes that need help paying the rent so they can play WoW all day. "No work from home" ... ? That's like, half the hackers out there. Whatever it is, that place is sketch city (capital of the united states of douche).


Very slick. Wish there was more room for the question titles while browsing, but love the clean interface and left/right swiping navigation. I'll definitely be popping open this app when out and about to absorb some insights from the top gurus in the RoR community. Cheers.


I don't see anything wrong with having a genuine appreciation for a quality product. You, my friend, are a hater :) And you can put down your pitchfork.

In regards to your actual addressable comment, yes people have more choices. That's called competition, and there's a lot of GOOD competition out there. I'm speaking to Apple's communication strategy that's lacking in certain areas that are really making holes in their public perception.


Our mobile devices have long since evolved from portable telephones. Especially for people in the younger demographic like me (I'm in college), my colleagues can (and do) live off their phones. They send and receive email, communicate socially via Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, play games, takes notes, and compile to-dos and calendar appointments. It's quick, efficient, and painless.

Before you know it, our phones will soon be replacing our credit cards (i.e. wallets) and opening doors for us (i.e. our keys). Mobile phones are arguably one of the most important things we carry around with us in our daily life, and it won't be going away anytime soon. And whoever innovates fastest to add more value to our lives, wins.


I believe I'm a part of that younger demographic, as I'm nearly 25.

My hands may be too big. I still can't find a mobile "smart" phone that I'm comfortable typing on (including the iPhone 5). I've tried several.


See it live here: http://ebay.com/feed

(Had to read through the whole thing to find out where it is!)


Is everyone getting the same suggestions? These look either barely-safe-for-work or dorky, or both. A Pinterest for nerds?

http://imgur.com/qJQj5

No connection to my purchase history that I can see... o_O


Sexy nurses, adorable baby Halloween costumes (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-2012-Noahs-Ark-collection-Pinky-...) and handbags.


Don't panic. I have exactly the same products.


No panic here, but I'm pretty confused by the selection. I would have bet money that sexy nurse costumes are on the least-selling item list.


You'd be surprised. Every Halloween they make a resurgence. Considerable developer effort goes into keeping pictures of the damn things off the (U-rated) front page of certain large e-commerce sites.


Yea I've got the exact same suggestions.


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