> The problem isn't the lack of a standard policy, but a policy at all.
"Standard" policy, or just "policy", same thing. The solution to this problem is for the parties to talk it out.
> The policies are all designed to protect incumbents and funnel money to the city
That's a good thing. City officials are incentivized to bring in more tax money. It's good for the city, and it is more likely they'll get re-elected if they do so. They also need to balance public safety and consider public perception of these issues while constantly sharing facts with the public. It's not an easy job.
How can a city - a bureaucracy - be bullied? If I file a lot of paperwork they get paid for dealing with it. If I scoff at a law, the city employees don't personally suffer.
> The solution to this problem is for the parties to talk it out.
The city has nothing to offer except to stop interfering and they win simply by dragging the process out.
> That's a good thing. City officials are incentivized to bring in more tax money.
Yes, they are incentivized to do it but those incentives don't align with the residents.
We could extract more money by raising your personal tax rate to 100% but while that would superficially help revenue it would ultimately hurt the community (you'll feel robbed by your neighbors) and the business climate in the city.
People already pay sales tax on Uber rides, and Uber (drivers) pay tax on gasoline, cars, etc. The city is already collecting at multiple points.
> They also need to balance public safety
They've shown that's not a concern with this nonsense over fingerprinting; Uber rides are already an order of magnitude safer than cabs because your account is linked to the car you enter, whose path is being logged in the cloud, etc.
Public officials hold positions as both representatives and leaders. Their voice holds sway. When a company attempts to hammer home the message that they are right and local officials are wrong, that's bullying. It's normal and happens all the time. What I'm suggesting is rather than fighting in the public arena via 3rd party messaging which is saying "I'm right, they're wrong", these parties would be better off calmly stating their positions to the public via their official mediums, or doing it at the negotiation table. It's clear that hasn't happened because this has blossomed into a dramatic news story.
> When a company attempts to hammer home the message that they are right and local officials are wrong, that's bullying.
The city officials making up nonsense about fingerprinting drivers, for safety, is the bullying. Implying that Uber and Lyft drivers are rapists and the companies don't care. And lying about the ability of fingerprint to save lives, even if.
Given that officials are managing perception, not fact, they are wrong, and deserve to be called out for it. That's not bullying, just the price of making unsupportable claims.
> Public officials hold positions as both representatives and leaders. Their voice holds sway.
Unless that magically makes them right, it's irrelevant.
> these parties would be better off calmly stating their positions to the public via their official mediums, or doing it at the negotiation table.
How would negotiating for the same rights as any other business help Uber and Lyft? Please sir, may I have the right to buy gas, serve passengers, etc?
When you deal with people for whom perception is more important than facts, you're never going to win by discussing facts.
> When you deal with people for whom perception is more important than facts, you're never going to win by discussing facts.
I think you're missing my point about perception. The world runs on perception. When presented with the same facts, even two identical twins may come up with a different conclusion. They each lead different lives.
I understand where you're coming from because I used to believe in hard truths too. This is the main point of our disagreement, and it's not worth discussing the details of the situation in Austin further without first agreeing on this point. I know we'll disagree on Austin because of our disagreement about perception of facts. Perhaps the world's most famous diplomat, Henry Kissinger, discusses this frequently, for example here [1], here [2], and here [3]. I think [3] is the best example because it shows when Kissinger changed his point of view on the subject of facts vs. perception. This is a man who opened up China to trading with the rest of the world after 30 years of disconnect. He's not perfect but he knows how to work with people and make things happen.
> How would negotiating for the same rights as any other business help Uber and Lyft? Please sir, may I have the right to buy gas, serve passengers, etc?
I think you have to come to the table with a mindset other than "you're out to get us". You need to believe that there is some merit to the government or people's position, and that they might have reason to believe that the public perceive a government background check is more secure than a private one, and would vote accordingly (as they did). Whether the fingerprint-based background check is better or not becomes irrelevant at the negotiating table. One can't wave a magic wand and change public perception to align with what you believe. Politicians will negotiate based on the public's view. The facts about background checks are useful to present on U/L's website or in media, but the only thing that matters to the politician will be public perception. This is why you see some politicians flipping on things like gay marriage. They weren't necessarily ideologically against it in 1990, they just felt they didn't have the strength to change the voters' view on the topic. You can call that weakness but there are tons of issues like this and gauging public opinion is really hard. Politicians spend all their time at it. There's a pretty good podcast from This American Life on the subject [4]. Politicians spend all their time calling people asking for money, which is a way of connecting with people and hearing their views. Barney Frank says,
"If the voters have a position, the votes will kick money's rear end any time. I've never met a politician-- I've been in the legislative bodies for 40 years now-- who, choosing between a significant opinion in his or her district and a number of campaign contributors, doesn't go with the district." [4]
> You need to believe that there is some merit to the government or people's position,
We've seen them invent the fear ("You'll be raped") and spend tax money freaking people out with that idea, as well as the thoroughly useless idea to fingerprint drivers. It's a bad solution to a fake problem.
If taxi-rape really was a problem (as opposed to a statistical anomaly) they'd realize that Uber and Lyft are already an order of magnitude better. (They log so much more!)
> I think you're missing my point about perception. The world runs on perception. When presented with the same facts, even two identical twins may come up with a different conclusion. They each lead different lives.
They both live in the same world, where the same number of people have been abducted and raped. It's ultimately a factual issue.
> and that they might have reason to believe that the public perceive a government background check is more secure than a private one, and would vote accordingly (as they did).
We know why they believe the public thinks this - they spent time and money creating and advertising it.
The public might also think they have an opinion on the brand of police car, or the type of transformers used in their electrical system, etc, but without relevant data their opinions would be meaningless.
If the politicians spent months lying about one company's transformer as being a "kiddy cooker", do you think the discussion would be meaningful?
> The facts about background checks are useful to present on U/L's website or in media, but the only thing that matters to the politician will be public perception.
Right, the only thing that matters to a politician will be their own propaganda and the money they can make from it. Facts are those thing you use to judge actual effectiveness and if we tried that we'd see there isn't a problem to try to fix.
> Whether the fingerprint-based background check is better or not becomes irrelevant at the negotiating table.
Right, it's about the graft. The issues are lies and nonsense; you can't meet in the middle because there is no middle. There's common sense and there's a cash grab and there isn't a way to reconcile those.
When you realize you're being railroaded, the best solution is to not play.
If they stayed the best they could accomplish would be paying some graft for some useless services which would then become standard. (Well, if Austin needs that, so do we!) That'd make their service worse for everyone, everywhere.
> Barney Frank says, (paraphrased) ["I've never seen a politician who didn't decide what to say by seeing what would pay the most."]
They see a potential new tax base and jobs they can claim to have invented. (Fingerprinting drivers and checking that. Both require new workers, etc...) And none of the politicians care about the services offered because they already have limo service. There's no downside for them in ruining it for others.
> I think you have to come to the table with a mindset other than "you're out to get us".
So when they are out to get you, you should be delusional and refuse to admit it?
No, Uber and Lyft did the right thing. They walked away from the scammers.
> No, Uber and Lyft did the right thing. They walked away from the scammers.
And Fasten is walking in to work with the scammers, which may make U/L irrelevant in 6 months to a year.
I accept your viewpoint. It is different than mine. Personally I don't think operating based on public perception is as bad as you paint it -- it's merely an acceptance that the people do not all perceive facts in the same way, and an acceptance that they can be educated for better or for worse. Which way is better, and which is worse, is subjective.
> If the politicians spent months lying about one company's transformer as being a "kiddy cooker", do you think the discussion would be meaningful?
I do strongly believe in the effectiveness of discourse, regardless of how much the participants have disagreed, leveled accusations, or made war in the preceding period. Leading figures in opposing countries can and do meet to find common objectives, even during or immediately after wartime. There are many examples of this in history. A PR squabble over taxi regulations is nothing compared to making up after a world war. Japan's economy, for example, had a great recovery following WW II without further conflict, largely thanks to good diplomacy after the war.
> When you realize you're being railroaded, the best solution is to not play.
Isolation is an absolute. Perhaps U/L need a break from dealing with Austin. There is a saying, only a sith deals in absolutes. I expect U/L will come back to the discussion table.
> If they stayed the best they could accomplish would be paying some graft for some useless services which would then become standard. (Well, if Austin needs that, so do we!) That'd make their service worse for everyone, everywhere.
Other ride sharing services like Fasten have filled the gap. Perhaps this is a temporary pill to be swallowed by the tech companies. Fasten is ahead of Uber in Austin because it is putting faith in building a relationship with Austin first. Later, with the good relationship in place, Fasten can still work on lifting the fingerprint requirement. This may hurt U/L, and U/L may wish businesses like Fasten did not exist. Wishing doesn't make them go away. They need to play the cards that are dealt.
> So when they are out to get you, you should be delusional and refuse to admit it?
No, I think in that case you can acknowledge that this is what's happening and still seek some common objective. If the politician truly is better than you at pulling the wool over the public's eyes, welcome to the real world, where you have to deal with people you don't like. Scorched earth politics are no fun. Despite that, you can still find common ground. All you have to do is be aware of the situation as you've described and work from there.
I notice you didn't comment on any of the videos I linked. I found [3] particularly instructive.
Anyway, I don't think either of us has been able to convince the other, so, I suggest we agree to disagree. Thanks again for the chat!
> I notice you didn't comment on any of the videos I linked.
They didn't address the point in question. I never denied that politicians follow the crowd.
In this case they're guilty of leading the crowd first.
> I do strongly believe in the effectiveness of discourse, regardless of how much the participants have disagreed, leveled accusations, or made war in the preceding period.
There's a ton of value for the dishonest person. Literally any settling you do is payout for them. But is there any value in it for the honest person?
You're still presenting this as if the Austin politicians actually think background checks will stop rape, or that there's a rape problem to begin with.
> Leading figures in opposing countries can and do meet to find common objectives, even during or immediately after wartime.
Sure, but there they've presumably got real metrics (people dying). And they can't just walk away.
> A PR squabble over taxi regulations is nothing compared to making up after a world war.
Right, this squabble is literally over a lie to make people buy unneeded services. It's nothing like a real issue such as an armistice.
> And Fasten is walking in to work with the scammers, which may make U/L irrelevant in 6 months to a year.
Not to the residents who are denied the better service, and who are forced to pay more for worthless measures.
> Fasten is ahead of Uber in Austin because it is putting faith in building a relationship with Austin first. Later, with the good relationship in place, Fasten can still work on lifting the fingerprint requirement.
You don't honestly believe that. A requirement to pay for city services is never going to go away. Especially because it wasn't enacted with metrics in mind so there's no way to prove that it's not helping anything.
Meanwhile, Austin residents suffer stupid, demeaning, and expensive requirements for them to get work.
> No, I think in that case you can acknowledge that this is what's happening and still seek some common objective. If the politician truly is better than you at pulling the wool over the public's eyes, welcome to the real world, where you have to deal with people you don't like.
That they left shows that you don't have to. Now the only people who are stuck dealing with the politicians are the residents.
> Scorched earth politics are no fun.
Except when you're a politician and have nothing to lose. Then they're par for the course. Their favorite super-weapon, the ban-hammer.
But that's a total mischaracterization on your part. Uber and Lyft simply walked away from a crazy market. You're trying to make it seem like they burned the town down on their way out.
> There is a saying, only a sith deals in absolutes.
Ahh yes, because only Hitler doesn't like being railroaded. Astute political observation.
> There's a ton of value for the dishonest person. Literally any settling you do is payout for them. But is there any value in it for the honest person?
By using the words honest and dishonest you're saying you believe in an objective morality. I already mentioned I don't believe in that.
The politician could be using duplicitous tactics. In a negotiation, it doesn't matter. You can always find somewhere to agree, even if it's just about the simple fact that Austin needs ride sharing. U/L could start over with an open mind, some blank slates, and see how much they can agree to with the city. Maybe invite a 3rd party negotiator. Ultimately, U/L may not agree with the city. At the very least, they'd have made their positions a bit more clear.
> You're still presenting this as if the Austin politicians actually think background checks will stop rape, or that there's a rape problem to begin with.
I do think successful politicians need to be as hard on security as can reasonably be expected on issues like this. It only takes one incident to destroy his or her political career. For example, let's say there's a hole in the road and I tell the city. Then, they don't fix it in a reasonable amount of time. Then, someone gets into an accident. The city is liable. In the case of U/L fingerprint checks, the politician won't be held liable for failure to clamp down on security in a court of law. However, he may be held liable in the court of public opinion. All it takes is one crime committed by a person who would've been filtered by the fingerprint background checks, but wasn't filtered by the private checks.
I'm not sure you appreciate how much people value their security, and how much Americans are willing to press for getting the best care possible. Once someone suggests that fingerprints are the best way to manage security going forward, it's difficult to backtrack and convince the public that's not necessary. Doing so is a risk for the politician, and since people don't like flip flops, once he or she speaks out in support of fingerprint checks, they'd also have difficulty going back on it, so it's full steam ahead until new information comes in.
Negotiation with U/L might help the city official find their way back towards a way to lead people to feel that fingerprint checks aren't necessary. The ball is in U/L's court and it isn't the mayor's job to convince people that he or she was wrong. That's U/L's job, and U/L can get there by making the mayor look good. Just like making your boss look good in the office, the same can be said of businesses and city officials. If U/L isn't willing to go there, it seems Fasten is.
We haven't talked about Fasten much. What do you expect will happen there? Fasten will be unprofitable? Or Austin will become upset with itself before other ride-sharing apps can fill the void left by U/L?
> Sure, but there they've presumably got real metrics (people dying). And they can't just walk away.
China walked away for ~20 years from 1949 to the 1970s. They had pulled back their diplomats from overseas and nobody was allowed in or out. 1 billion people were locked in. A lot of people died. Their heads of state didn't approach anyone. The US approached them, very carefully, because although they didn't want to completely turn their backs on Taiwan, they did want to have economic relations with China. China wanted to have relations with the US too. Neither party was certain where they could find common ground. Through a series of meetings, they found a way to work together, despite China being communist and America being anti-communist. I don't know of any more diametrically opposed ideologies working together than those two, and if they can do it, anyone can.
> Not to the residents who are denied the better service, and who are forced to pay more for worthless measures.
Something is better than nothing, no? The vote happened, and now Austin has Fasten instead of U/L. U/L doesn't seem like an option to riders at the moment.
> A requirement to pay for city services is never going to go away
Maybe you're right. Maybe Fasten disappears and is unsustainable. My guess is, if they were in dire straits, the city would work with them to lower costs, lest the city appear to be pushing away all ride sharing service providers. I'd guess that is 6 months or a year down the road, if ever. Austin could elect a mayor who thinks differently, and, by that time Fasten or someone else may be well established.
Maybe U/L weighed all the risks and decided Austin isn't worth it. But if Fasten is able to sustain for a year under the fingerprint system, I think that gives other cities leverage to push for the same. In the public's eyes it's about security and that's all that counts. Leaving the negotiating table in Austin could backfire on U/L. If I were them I'd rather be involved in setting policy with which the public agrees, and being a part of that discussion rather than being viewed as opposed to the public. Politicians are elected the same way products are sold. It's all about perception. The materials in different Apple watch bands all cost the same. Companies sell products for what people are willing to pay, etc etc.
> But that's a total mischaracterization on your part. Uber and Lyft simply walked away from a crazy market. You're trying to make it seem like they burned the town down on their way out.
I don't mean to say that. I mean to say they have many options in front of them. Stay away, come back, talk more in the media, approach city officials directly and try to build a relationship (legally! ;-) ), or any number of other things. They have many options.
> By using the words honest and dishonest you're saying you believe in an objective morality. I already mentioned I don't believe in that.
I'm referring to facts, which you also said you don't believe in.
I agree that there is subjectivity in everything - is it an elephant, or a tree, etc.. But if you think tree and say tiger, you're lying.
> The politician could be using duplicitous tactics. In a negotiation, it doesn't matter.
Uh, yes it does. An upfront person should never negotiate with someone they feel is duplicitous. They'll take every olive branch from and offer you nothing real in return.
> You can always find somewhere to agree
Not with someone playing a game, you won't. They won't give you the time of day unless they can manipulate it.
> even if it's just about the simple fact that Austin needs ride sharing.
Obviously it doesn't. And even if it did, it's not Uber or Lyft's job to provide it if it's not also in their best interests.
> U/L could start over with an open mind, some blank slates, and see how much they can agree to with the city.
They don't at all. There's no middle-ground in the fundamental issues at all.
There's probably a low enough price where it wouldn't be worth arguing, but there's a world full of other cities so that price is pretty low.
> At the very least, they'd have made their positions a bit more clear.
Do you think the problem is that they haven't been understood?
> We haven't talked about Fasten much.
Right, it's almost irrelevant. The issue is the dishonest city driving out businesses that won't pay graft.
> What do you expect will happen there? Fasten will be unprofitable?
Because of this interference? No. They'll pass the costs on to the consumers. Consumers will be paying for worthless security measures designed to mitigate imaginary risks.
Also if they're the consolation prize for having chased Uber away, the city will give them concession after concession to make it appear that they made a good choice.
> But if Fasten is able to sustain for a year under the fingerprint system, I think that gives other cities leverage to push for the same.
And it'll still be worthless when others did it, but yes I imagine they'd be emboldened to try. There's literally no downside for the politicians to try to take everything they can.
That's like saying that if I burned down your factory and got away with it that other business owners would become wary and probably pay protection money. True, but horrid.
> If I were them I'd rather be involved in setting policy with which the public agrees, and being a part of that discussion rather than being viewed as opposed to the public.
Your only carrot is less stick. Talk to us now or talk to us when after a year of being trashed in the media.
It would be a scary threat except that this is the only reception they get.
> Politicians are elected the same way products are sold.
No, when companies advertise to me they aren't reaching into my pocket to do so.
The city is spending taxpayer dollars to lie to the people.
> approach city officials directly and try to build a relationship
Yeah, approach the city officials and, cough cough, build a relationship. "Mr-Mayor Stadium" would go a long way to making anything happen.
> They have many options.
Right, unlike the people of Austin. The ones who paid to be lied to, and paid to be denied market rate service, and (if you believe the rape-epidemic stories) paid to be stuck with the rape-mobiles we call taxis.
> Do you think the problem is that they haven't been understood?
That's a possibility. U/L didn't get their message across to the public and the public voted against them. Occam's razor.
> Also if they're the consolation prize for having chased Uber away, the city will give them concession after concession to make it appear that they made a good choice.
You seem to be concluding that the decision made by the city is morally wrong. Many things end up this way in the world, and we manage to move forward in spite of the world's imperfections
> That's like saying that if I burned down your factory and got away with it that other business owners would become wary and probably pay protection money. True, but horrid.
Yes. I don't know how you perceive the world. In my view, it's mostly good.
> No, when companies advertise to me they aren't reaching into my pocket to do so.
There was a vote..
> The city is spending taxpayer dollars to lie to the people.
People make up their own minds. Flooding them with pro-U/L or pro-fingerprint messages is just a means of sharing information. At the end of the day, people decide for themselves. In America we're lucky to have the freedom to seek out other news sources. As buried as the other side of the story may be, it's better than only being allowed to read one side.
> Yeah, approach the city officials and, cough cough, build a relationship. "Mr-Mayor Stadium" would go a long way to making anything happen.
That's not what I meant. I meant, any negotiation first requires treating the other person like a person. You're a person, I'm a person, we can shake hands and even agree to disagree without even raising voices. We can also find agreement without money exchanging hands. It might not be exactly what you or I had in mind at the outset of the meeting but it's something.
You and I agree that perceptions, or context around facts, are what drive votes. People interpret facts depending on the context. That's something on which we can agree.
> Right, unlike the people of Austin. The ones who paid to be lied to, and paid to be denied market rate service, and (if you believe the rape-epidemic stories) paid to be stuck with the rape-mobiles we call taxis.
They had a vote. Some voted for U/L, some voted against it. Voters would be offended if you told them they were too mindless to interpret the facts in the right way. Politicians told voters they're intelligent enough to vote, and U/L implies that they're not. Who do you think wins that vote, even before it starts, regardless of the facts? Beginning with the intent to offend people, or thinking that you're smarter than they are, wins zero votes.
Again thanks for the discussion! I'm continuing because you seem cool with it. I'm also fine if you want to drop it, as it's been quite a number of responses and I understand if it is getting tiresome. I won't consider it a forfeit, and I respect your opinion.
I'm surprised you had no comments about the negotiations in China in the 70s. That example may not be the best since it depends on your familiarity with history of that time & place. But if anti-communists and communists working together doesn't convince you that anything's possible, I've no idea what will.
Who do you look up to? Who do you admire?
I also still think you're overlooking how Americans feel about security. They want the best there is. Even if a cold medicine's ingredients are the same, people are most likely to buy the one whose package says "guaranteed cure!". That's their perception acting when interpreting facts, or, as you might put it, warping facts. Either way the perception is the driving force.
> That's a possibility. U/L didn't get their message across to the public and the public voted against them. Occam's razor.
It's vanishingly unlikely that the incumbents wouldn't win the election (get their way) when they've been propagandizing to the people.
> You seem to be concluding that the decision made by the city is morally wrong. Many things end up this way in the world, and we manage to move forward in spite of the world's imperfections
It feels like you keep trying to make this something spiritual.
I'm saying the decision is wrong because it's a bad strategy predicated on a mistaken risk analysis used because of lies. That's inefficient and will, almost by definition, be the consolation prize. Something designed as a negotiation with taxi companies who were asked "How much competition do you want?"
>> No, when companies advertise to me they aren't reaching into my pocket to do so.
> There was a vote..
On a heavily propagandized and scaremongered issue which make it essentially meaningless as an indicator of the people's true feelings.
> Flooding them with pro-U/L or pro-fingerprint messages is just a means of sharing information.
No, not really.
And the main issue is that they used the taxpayers own money to advertise and justify the city's side - which was actually mostly lies.
> People make up their own minds.
So no, they really don't. Not when the government itself is selling them messages of rape and terrorism.
> Voters would be offended if you told them they were too mindless to interpret the facts in the right way.
That's very meta-liberal of you to be offended for people who would be offended if only they knew. Especially because the insult was yours.
My contention is that the facts are hidden, and worse, are lies from people they should be able to trust.
You're the one making the implication that being fooled must be shameful.
> We can also find agreement without money exchanging hands. It might not be exactly what you or I had in mind at the outset of the meeting but it's something.
Concessions are as good as cash. That sidesteps the issue of why, and how there's no good reason.
> You and I agree that perceptions, or context around facts
In this context (hah), context means additional facts. Yes, a bullet hole, but also IN a person.
> People interpret facts depending on the context.
And in this context, you're referring to emotional context, and what these people are doing isn't valid reasoning. They're reacting differently to the same stimuli because of unrelated historical events (the propaganda.)
> I also still think you're overlooking how Americans feel about security. They want the best there is.
No, I don't. I work in a similar industry. And no they don't, they want easy choices.
If you ask people what they want they'll say the best, and if you watch them they'll choose the cheapest, but they're happiest when an seemingly affordable option says "Guaranteed" because it frees them of the responsibility to think.
> Either way the perception is the driving force.
Yes, and in this case the very experts we elect to help us reason about this are lying to us, intentionally shaping these all-important perceptions. Then they're polling us right after the 10-minute hate and using those results to drive decision by consensus.
It's meaningless, except that it's being used to steal from all of us.
> It's vanishingly unlikely that the incumbents wouldn't win the election (get their way) when they've been propagandizing to the people.
Could be!
> It feels like you keep trying to make this something spiritual.
How's that? All I've said is people's interpretation of facts drives votes, not facts themselves. I don't see how that is spiritual. It's as mathematical as anything.
>> People make up their own minds.
> So no, they really don't.
On this, I cannot agree, unless you want to argue for determinism and against free will, in which case I'd reconsider it. You feel people are puppets. I say they vote based on interpretation of facts, that propaganda can be influential, and that ultimately they make up their own minds.
> That's very meta-liberal of you to be offended for people who would be offended if only they knew. Especially because the insult was yours.
Eh, I don't really care if they're offended, I'm just saying what I think is likely to win your argument. I'm actually neutral here, and don't favor U/L or the city. Believe it or not, I'm just arguing for what I think constitutes the most effective strategy and methods. I think the city happens to have a better bead on good strategy than U/L in some ways.
> You're the one making the implication that being fooled must be shameful.
Actually, I don't believe that. All of us are unknowledgeable about something at one point or another. We're not born all-knowing. Applying shame for lack of knowledge or understanding is wasted effort.
> Concessions are as good as cash. That sidesteps the issue of why, and how there's no good reason.
Okay. It sounds like winning every penny that you feel you deserve matters more to you than making a deal that's anything less than ideal. I'm not privy to the financials of U/L so I really couldn't say what's reasonable. Plus as you note it's complicated since there could be a ripple effect. Again, I'm just speaking in support of tactics and strategy that I think are likely to be effective. I'm not necessarily siding with the city. I think the ripple effect could happen in either direction, and that by not discussing things with Austin, U/L are allowing that city to create their own version of a ripple. That ripply could go in a direction that U/L likes even less than one in which U/L were more directly involved. U/L could be more a part of the collective stone that's tossed into the water along with the residents and city officials. By disengaging, they lose some of their influence. If they want to come back they'd be best served working on the relationship first, however corrupt the officials are perceived to be, so long as it's legal. City officials cannot compel U/L to break the law.
I don't doubt there's shady stuff happening in Texas in regards to tech companies. The situation with patents there is horrid for many entrepeneurs. That said, it is what it is, and everyone needs to either work with the law as it is written, risk a bit of civil disobedience, campaign for some changes, or walk away from it like you say. In the case of software patents, they're tough to walk away from in the US. Walking away from the US is difficult from an investor perspective. I'd applaud anyone who does so to diversify their efforts. Personally, I'm in Taiwan. I think most people agree that the US is about as good as it gets.
> And in this context, you're referring to emotional context, and what these people are doing isn't valid reasoning. They're reacting differently to the same stimuli because of unrelated historical events (the propaganda.)
Do you really think this strategy will get U/L somewhere with voters? Does it help you win arguments with your partner, or in friendships when you tell them they're unreasonable? What if I called you unreasonable or started calling you names? I believe that's considered bad form on HN. Feel free to let the crap fly if you prefer. I'm not offended by any of it. You can call me spiritual, hand wavy, factless, ignorant, or whatever suits you. Names would not change my feeling about how effective campaigns are run. I'll do my best to listen to arguments despite name calling. Respect for my intellect might win a bit more with me, as I imagine it would with most people. I would still try to look out for the reason in your argument.
> No, I don't. I work in a similar industry. And no they don't, they want easy choices.
> If you ask people what they want they'll say the best, and if you watch them they'll choose the cheapest, but they're happiest when an seemingly affordable option says "Guaranteed" because it frees them of the responsibility to think.
I agree with that. You've changed my mind here. That said, "easy" is pushing the button that says "spend more taxes on security". Even far right republicans who want small government will spend a boat load on defense. The far-far right want a giant metaphorical wall inside which they can operate freely. In practice, for better or for worse, that doesn't happen in a democratic republic, or any other society I've seen. There are always internal regulations that some people hate and some people love.
> It's meaningless, except that it's being used to steal from all of us.
It's always been this way. Every tool can be used for good or evil, we just try to elect who we think are fair minded guys/gals and cross our fingers they're not ideologues. It's tough. Even elected officials can't be certain of supreme court nominees. Nominees' entire lives are examined and it can still take weeks or months for officials to confirm them. I do think, on the whole, our democratic republic is better than the alternatives that exist elsewhere. What do you think?
> How's that? All I've said is people's interpretation of facts drives votes, not facts themselves. I don't see how that is spiritual. It's as mathematical as anything.
No, you keep appealing to objective morality, and/or the lack of it. Facts are facts. They're what doesn't go away when you close your eyes. That's all.
It's not an appeal to an objective morality to predict that the coyote will fall when he walks off the cliff.
> On this, I cannot agree, [...] You feel people are puppets.
Oh? People pay for advertising because it doesn't work? That's news.
Ditto propaganda. It plainly works. We decry posting of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion not because it's right, but because it doesn't matter if it's right for it to have a very-clear effect in driving violence against innocent people.
Being easily led is the default state and takes constant work to avoid. It's not unreasonable to predict that at any time most everyone involved in a decision is phoning it it - especially in heavily propagandized scenarios.
> I say they vote based on interpretation of facts, that propaganda can be influential, and that ultimately they make up their own minds.
Sure, without electrodes implanted, anything that happens in their head is "their own mind" by definition.
But you won't get a useful answer to anything from a group of people who've already heard a lopsided view of an issue. Not even representative of their broader opinions.
> All of us are unknowledgeable about something at one point or another. We're not born all-knowing. Applying shame for lack of knowledge or understanding is wasted effort.
And yet you've repeatedly put derogatory words in my mouth for the people of Austin, as if I must believe them to be mindless to think that they've decided wrongly.
You're dehumanizing me, as a way of combatting the dehumanization and disrespect you assume I must have for others. It's funny to watch.
> I don't really care if they're offended, I'm just saying what I think is likely to win your argument.
Oh okay.
> Do you really think this strategy will get U/L somewhere with voters? Does it help you win arguments with your partner, or in friendships when you tell them they're unreasonable?
Ahh yes, you do care.
You're moving the goalposts. The issue is that the city made the wrong decision because the elected officials spent taxpayer money to lie to the people. You suggest that now I'm failing to win the hearts of the voters.
I'm not trying to "win" with the voters. That would take propaganda and lots of money. I'm showing why their decision was wrong, and how it was manipulated, and why people spent time and money (but not their own) to make it happen.
> What if I called you unreasonable or started calling you names?
Again, an argument by appeal to offense - and offense that you've gone out of your way to create.
I'm not trying to win you over so I frankly don't care, but I haven't called you or the residents of Austin any names. All the slights are actually yours, that you're suggesting I try out. (Puppets, etc.)
> > Concessions are as good as cash.
> Okay. It sounds like winning every penny that you feel you deserve matters more to you than making a deal that's anything less than ideal.
Why don't you ask what I feel as opposed to telling me? Does that win you any arguments with friends and family? :P
No, I'm saying that being wrongly forced to concede anything is the same, ultimately, as being forced to make a cash payment. You act as if non-financial concessions wouldn't be damaging to their business, etc. "Oh, it's a non-financial concession, whatever." Like a non-financial concession to fingerprint drivers, for example.
You keep coming back to the fallacy of the middle-ground, implying that the right thing to do is seek consensus with all viewpoints, and that some amount of concessions must always be closer to correct than any starting point.
> By disengaging, they lose some of their influence.
The decision was made in the propaganda phase - a game they could play just as well from outside if they choose to. FWIW, their influence comes from providing a better service in more areas. A lack of Uber is more damning to Austin than a lack of Austin is to Uber, and Uber(/Lyft) makes their best argument for helping Austin simply by providing the best service in SF.
By disengaging they simply refuse to validate the elected officials and waste time in a rigged process.
> Respect for my intellect might win a bit more with me, as I imagine it would with most people. I would still try to look out for the reason in your argument.
Respect, respect, respect. You sound like Cartman on an authority trip. "Respect Mah Intelligence!" But you don't have any disrespect to point to; it's a demonization tactic not real advice.
You've put words in my mouth, told me what I though, and slighted the people of Austin for me. Please don't.
> That said, "easy" is pushing the button that says "spend more taxes on security".
No, 'easy' is pushing the button you've been told to push by the advertising. It's absolutely unrelated to the actual outcome picked because the point is that the easy solution is to bypass even considering the issues, let alone choosing something.
If security sold then people would have enough smoke detectors and fire extinguishers.
> It's always been this way. Every tool can be used for good or evil, we just try to elect who we think are fair minded guys/gals and cross our fingers
The "it's always been this way" defense. I don't understand your need to pull that out or what you think it accomplishes.
"But throughout history we've always mugged and killed people, your Honor. I don't see how this is any worse."
It's meaningless when dealing with specifics. It doesn't matter if Nixon wasn't that unusual, he was still a crook... It doesn't matter if many cities have corrupt officials, it matters that we can point them out when it happens without hand-waving and denials.
I think there's some miscommunication over the meaning of our words due to the limitations of communicating by text. Maybe we can condense the topic.
I suggest distilling it into 4 general areas. Things about which we agree, don't agree, things that bug us, and things we don't know
I believe we agree that,
(1) People make decisions based on how they feel about something
(2) People are influenced by emotion, propaganda, and facts
(3) You care about Austin, its riders, U/L, and fingerprinting
We don't agree on,
(1) Whether facts are facts. You feel this way, I don't. I feel facts aren't meaningful on their own because they're always viewed through a lens, that is, by a person.
(2) Whether I care that U/L is in Austin or not. You feel I do, I feel I don't. I'm interested in this discussion as a means of getting to know how people work, particularly, myself.
Things which perhaps bother us both to a tiny degree are,
(1) Putting words in each other's mouths
I don't know,
(1) Why you care about U/L vs. Austin. I've been making the wrong assumptions. Can you describe your interest? Do you care about both the principle of fingerprinting and the money equally? Why? I want to stop putting words in your mouth. I'm sorry if these sound like dumb questions.
Is the above fair to say? How would you define where we agree and disagree? The discussion doesn't need to end, I'm just trying to think of a way to tone it down. I did not set out to dehumanize you. I am sorry for doing that. Obviously you are thoughtful.
> Things which perhaps bother us both to a tiny degree are, (1) Putting words in each other's mouths
You just discovered that?
But seriously, it's more that you're shooting in the dark when you guess that I'm anti so-and-so. You're looking for an easy win. Ditto the "Respect" angle. Since when did emotion make 2+2 = 5? And if you say it does, you're right that I will disrespect you, but falling back on that in an argument is dishonesty.
> (3) You care about Austin, its riders, U/L, and fingerprinting
I must need to write more clearly. The part I care to discuss is that the people who we elect and pay to guide us are knowingly lying, and spending our money to propagandize to us, then claiming a victory at the polls represents the people's broader will.
Fingerprinting is a non-solution. It's like homeopathic medicine or faith healing. Largely irrelevant in theory, but in practice it prevents real solutions from being tried.
What would make people safer? Well, if there was an actual risk, then logging which vehicle was dispatched to each person would. And having the app phone-home GPS data from the vehicle in realtime. And that's all stuff Uber and Lyft already do.
If rape really was a threat in taxis, etc, then the elected officials have decided to keep subjecting their people to this by forcing out the actual safer option.
By denying actual solutions they're increasing the chance of rape. Why? Because they don't have their name on it. Better ten rapes, one of which the mayor is involved in rescuing, than no rapes at all. You can't claim responsibility for there not being any rapes unless you freak everyone out and are seen doing something, loudly.
The only saving grace is that the threat isn't actually real.
I think we define "winning" differently. Win for me is discussion.
> the people who we elect and pay to guide us are knowingly lying
I'm not sure there is evidence supporting this yet. A journalist near the mayor could investigate where he got the idea to do fingerprint checks.
> By denying actual solutions they're increasing the chance of rape. Why? Because they don't have their name on it. Better ten rapes, one of which the mayor is involved in rescuing, than no rapes at all. You can't claim responsibility for there not being any rapes unless you freak everyone out and are seen doing something, loudly.
I agree that city officials are not as effective on their own as they are when surrounded by experts. I wonder who on the mayor's staff would advise him on tech issues.
> If I file a lot of paperwork they get paid for dealing with it. If I scoff at a law, the city employees don't personally suffer.
This is a really narrow minded view of the role of a politician. Their job depends upon public satisfaction. If the public is not happy with what they do, they risk losing their job.
Elected officials are not making big bucks in overtime dealing with extra paperwork.
> The city has nothing to offer except to stop interfering and they win simply by dragging the process out.
This makes no sense. The city doesn't win by excluding businesses from operating, nor do the city officials. City officials win by doing what is in the interest of the public, and by sharing details with the public that they might not otherwise know. The same can be said of businesses and their PR efforts.
> Yes, they are incentivized to do it but those incentives don't align with the residents.
Balancing taxes, security, etc. is in the interest of residents. Taxes permit the government to pay for police, firemen, road construction, schools, etc. Security permits them to move freely without needing to focus much on that themselves.
> We could extract more money by raising your personal tax rate to 100% but while that would superficially help revenue it would ultimately hurt the community (you'll feel robbed by your neighbors) and the business climate in the city.
In balancing these there is a give and take. Setting one weight to 100% is not an option in a balanced equation.
> People already pay sales tax on Uber rides, and Uber (drivers) pay tax on gasoline, cars, etc. The city is already collecting at multiple points.
Yup I don't dispute that.
> They've shown that's not a concern with this nonsense over fingerprinting
You're overlooking the importance of perception. Facts are nothing on their own. How people interpret them is what counts. At the moment, the Austin public's perception is that fingerprinting is something that ride sharing services should do.
> Elected officials are not making big bucks in overtime dealing with extra paperwork.
The city is not the elected officials, it's the myriad workers who perform the day-to-day work. The city apparatus survives just fine even if the elected officials end up with egg on their face. Perhaps better.
> This is a really narrow minded view of the role of a politician. Their job depends upon public satisfaction. If the public is not happy with what they do, they risk losing their job.
If you screw up majorly at work, do you not risk losing your job? That's as it should be.
Wasting time and (apparently scarce) city money on propaganda and unreasonable demands seems like a good reason.
> City officials win by doing what is in the interest of the public,
You yourself point out that they win by being perceived to do that's in the interest of the public, not some hard to define "actual good".
> You're overlooking the importance of perception. Facts are nothing on their own. How people interpret them is what counts.
Enacting useless policies only helps their reelection campaign. Facts are everything, not nothing.
> Taxes permit the government to pay for [stuff]
And income is what lets a Lyft employee feed their family.
The city is already making more in tax since Uber and Lyft went in - from every taxable good and service they consume, and as trickle-down from their drivers' spending, etc. But that doesn't show up on the balance sheets with a politician's name next to it so its worthless to the people making these unreasonable demands.
> At the moment, the Austin public's perception is that fingerprinting is something that ride sharing services should do.
An idea it got from city officials why scrambled for something to do, not something useful to do.
It doesn't matter that Uber is safer than a cab, if you can't attach your name to that claim you're politically better off banning it.
The city is everyone, both elected officials and those who elected them. The elected officials represent the desires of the city whenever they were last elected.
> The city apparatus survives just fine even if the elected officials end up with egg on their face. Perhaps better.
Yes, this is exactly why we have a democratic republic and we don't referendum everything. It gives the public a chance to blame one individual rather than each other.
> If you screw up majorly at work, do you not risk losing your job? That's as it should be.
Of course. My point was that city employees do suffer when you scoff at the law. They risk losing their jobs. Many roles are appointed by the elected administration.
> Wasting time and (apparently scarce) city money on propaganda and unreasonable demands seems like a good reason.
The government spent money holding a referendum that potentially would have benefited U/L. You're certainly free to voice your concerns about how tax money is spent. The city, in my opinion, acted properly.
> not some hard to define "actual good".
Right, I didn't say "actual good", I said "interest of the public". That is another way of saying their desire, which is based on their perception of facts, not facts themselves. I don't believe in "actual good" or "objective morality". Perceptions are reality
> Enacting useless policies only helps their reelection campaign.
Enacting policies with which the public agrees helps them. It's a pretty simple equation. Politicians do not exercise any great mind control any more than U/L. Each holds their own sway, but ultimately the public decides themselves how to interpret facts.
> Facts are everything, not nothing.
I don't mean to say facts are useless. I mean that people can interpret them differently. One man's trash is another's treasure, that sort of thing. Some people love U/L, others have no need for it. Recognizing differences in people can help you build products, companies, run for office, etc.
> And income is what lets a Lyft employee feed their family.
For sure. I have very little stake in this issue. No U/L stock and I don't live in Austin. I'm merely American. My interest is it's interesting to discuss. Whether or not Austin makes tax money or U/L make profit, and all the ramifications associated with employment etc. make little difference to me.
> The city is already making more in tax since Uber and Lyft went in - from every taxable good and service they consume, and as trickle-down from their drivers' spending, etc.
That's wonderful.
> But that doesn't show up on the balance sheets with a politician's name next to it so its worthless
Again I'd say that's short sighted. People do care when a business leaves a city. Parents recognize the value of tax money, which goes towards keeping them and their young ones safe and educated.
> its worthless to the people making these unreasonable demands
Calling them unreasonable demands is your opinion. Another way of phrasing this is you think more than 50% of active Austin voters are unreasonable. I'd say that attitude is unlikely to help you build a business there or get someone elected.
> An idea it got from city officials why scrambled for something to do, not something useful to do.
Whether a person thinks private vs. government background checks is more useful is subjective. People voted on this. If U/L feels private checks without fingerprints are just as good as government ones, then they should share more information on this through their website.
Complaining about the decision made by Austin voters does little to help U/L at this point, particularly to me, since I'm not even a resident. Perhaps you also just find it interesting to discuss. Cheers!
> Of course. My point was that city employees do suffer when you scoff at the law. They risk losing their jobs. Many roles are appointed by the elected administration.
The workers at the DMV don't suffer, the meter readers don't suffer, etc.
If anyone does, it's the politician whose stupid ideas and lies wasted everyone's time and money. And that's a feature.
> Enacting policies with which the public agrees helps them. It's a pretty simple equation. Politicians do not exercise any great mind control any more than U/L. Each holds their own sway, but ultimately the public decides themselves how to interpret facts.
Cough. They use your tax money to send propaganda to you, lying about the facts. They abuse the presumption that they're working for the public to push their own agenda.
Uber and Lyft have fact on their side. And if they lied, they'd risk someone going to jail.
> Whether or not Austin makes tax money or U/L make profit, and all the ramifications associated with employment etc. make little difference to me.
You just spent time explaining that tax money can be used to buy services. I knew that, but figured you might be saying it because you didn't see the other side of the equation where untaxed wages can also be used to buy things...
> Calling them unreasonable demands is your opinion.
Only if you water words down until they don't mean anything.
The city's demands are for useless measures to fix an issue that already doesn't impact anyone, and the proposition is one they make money from.
> Another way of phrasing this is you think more than 50% of active Austin voters are unreasonable. I'd say that attitude is unlikely to help you build a business there or get someone elected.
No, I think the politicians are lying which confounds the issue. The people trust them and many or all may be mislead but that's not the same as thinking that each and every voter themselves is unreasonable.
> Whether a person thinks private vs. government background checks is more useful is subjective.
That's not the issue, that's the overton-window version. Worthless checks are worthless, no matter who does them.
> If U/L feels private checks without fingerprints are just as good as government ones, then they should share more information on this through their website.
As you say, it's not about facts. Engaging on the wrong issues merely settles the discussion around those issues.
> Complaining about the decision made by Austin voters does little to help U/L at this point
I'm not complaining, I think it's exactly what the city deserves for duplicitousness. Sometimes walking away from crazy people is all you can do.
> I'm not complaining, I think it's exactly what the city deserves for duplicitousness
So you don't think Fasten or other competitors will be able to fill the gap? I'll be interested to follow developments.
> Sometimes walking away from crazy people is all you can do.
That's fine that you feel this way. I'd argue it hasn't been the path forward for businesses or governments when working with each other. U/L has a lot of business elsewhere so the decision to leave may not hurt them in the short term.
I understand better now how strongly you feel the city government is lying. I'm still not convinced that leaving Austin is the right way for U/L to get what they want.
Arguing that private background checks are just as effective as government fingerprint checks is a nuanced point of view. The public may have a hard time swallowing this one. Through their vote, they expressed more trust in the government's claim that fingerprint checks are more secure than private checks. Generally, people trust government security over private security. Apple staked a good part of its reputation challenging one part of this belief. They seem to have won, for now. U/L could also something extreme along those lines, walk away as you say, or try negotiating. They have several options
> Arguing that private background checks are just as effective as government fingerprint checks is a nuanced point of view.
No, it's not. In this case there's no risk (see the majority of areas where taxi drivers are not fingerprinted and the lack of rape epidemics) so there's no benefit to any mitigation strategy.
You'd receive just as much value from an anti-rape charm bracelet.
If there was a real problem you could actually analyze it, knowing what we know of rapists, and see how much of a barrier each type of countermeasure would provide. Not "nuanced" but fact-based.
> Through their vote, they expressed more trust in the government's claim that fingerprint checks are more secure than private checks.
The same government that paid to build fear over a non-existent rape epidemic paid to tell them that their solution was better.
If I hire an expert and that expert lies to me, yes I'd probably be fooled. But having fooled me doesn't somehow vindicate the expert. Even if Uber was banned by an actual popular vote it would be meaningless at this point.
Are you in a debate club or something? I'm surprised this discussion has continued so long. This is one of the longer discussions I've ever had online. I'm impressed. If you're not already into debating, I'd recommend checking it out, you'd be great!
> But having fooled me doesn't somehow vindicate the expert
I never said it would vindicate anyone. I just said people make decisions based on their interpretation of facts, or their perception of reality. Since reality is always perceived through some lens, there is no objective reality. You are, of course, free to disagree.
The fact that interpretation and context impact our perception of facts is not a bad thing or a good thing. It's just a thing. When you're 7, and your parents tell you that skateboards are dangerous, you'll probably believe that for awhile. At age 10, you might see a friend riding a board while wearing pads. You might think that's pretty reasonable and change your mind. For those 3 years between 7-10, you stayed away because your parents kept telling you it's too dangerous. Adults aren't so different from kids. We don't have time for all these detailed messages from companies and politicians. Each news headline gets about 5 seconds of people's attention. People don't have time to read an article about every topic.
I said both are bullying each other.
> The problem isn't the lack of a standard policy, but a policy at all.
"Standard" policy, or just "policy", same thing. The solution to this problem is for the parties to talk it out.
> The policies are all designed to protect incumbents and funnel money to the city
That's a good thing. City officials are incentivized to bring in more tax money. It's good for the city, and it is more likely they'll get re-elected if they do so. They also need to balance public safety and consider public perception of these issues while constantly sharing facts with the public. It's not an easy job.