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You'd have to make it mandatory leave. The social pressure is still tilted towards women as care givers and men as providers so more men will end up not using the leave. If it becomes mandatory then it's just a baked in rising to every employee, _and_ will probably do better for society to have both parents get time with their children.

I believe some European states solve this by having the state cover ~60% of your wage while on leave so that it's not a giant burden for companies




There is an alternative. We could amortize the costs of maternity leave over the entire working population. This way we get the desired outcome (companies have no financial disincentive to hire women) without creating weird forced life-decisions.

That is, I'd propose we let some government pay the maternity leave, and finance it from income tax.


No incentive is probably an overstatement, but there would certainly be less incentive. Every employer would pay the average cost of paid parental leave, regardless of who they employed. That would reduce discrimination against those likely to use parental leave.

Though, I would probably fund it via a payroll tax so it could remain employer-paid. I don't think it makes any difference to the economics whether you tax the employee or the employer, but changing who pays is an additional decision you'd need to explain and that would be attacked by political opponents. A payroll tax is a smaller change and equally effective, so it's the better option.


You'd still have the costs of training or reallocating another employee to fill the persons role, and that risk would be higher in women if our society doesn't change its norms about whose the caregiver and whose the provider.


>> companies have no financial disincentive to hire women

This would still exist in this world. You're still down an employee. So you don't hire women or married men.


Thereby ruling out almost everyone over the age of thirty? Not really practical.

Also, it doesn't actually happen.


You'd have to make it mandatory leave.

How do you accomplish that without violating the right to privacy? If a man keeps coming into work and his partner is pregnant, nobody has to know.


A woman doesn't have that possibility, so enabling that also encourages discrimination.


I'm aware of that. This is a case where one right is in conflict with another. There's no good answer. One group of people is going to lose and another is going to win.

The disadvantage women have is that they can't hide a pregnancy forever. Men can go to extreme lengths to hide their relationships. Although rare, it is not unheard of for a man to have two families at the same time, each one hidden from the other, and maintain this state of affairs for years before getting caught (otherwise we'd never hear about it).


Society doesn't need to and doesn't have any duty make this kind of arrangement easier to maintain.

Also multiple marriages are illegal in Western countries.


The point about multiple hidden families was an example of the lengths men can go to in order to hide their relationships, not an endorsement of the practice.

The fact is, an employer has no right to know what, if any, relationships the employee has, let alone the pregnancy status of them.

The fact that employers discriminate against pregnant employees is the problem we should be addressing directly.


Having a family without marrying is not illegal, though.


Birth records are public records, and if they aren't together, many states will require the father to pay child support once they figure out who he is. Sure, no one would have to know, but they can find out. If the non-pregnant partner carries the health insurance, they will probably want the pregnancy covered and the baby once it is born. An intelligent non-pregnant partner would change his tax exemptions to mirror their new family size (except in a few cases).

The tax forms might be a key: Require everyone to be honest about their underage children, whether or not they are dependents, and give the option to claim fewer dependents on their tax forms.

Yet another option is to handle it much like FMLA. The employer doesn't get the right to know exactly what is going on and the doctor can use medical codes instead of plain English. My ex's psychiatrist did this when he needed time off for a major mental illness (he later went on disability for said illness). The employer doesn't have to know, but he'll need similar notice.


This is incredibly dystopian and would be massive government and corporate overreach.

I would hope a reasonable person would never advocate for such intrusion.


Most of these are already in place and they already have your information about your family. Insurance providers, the IRS, and so on. Women already have absolutely no choice in people knowing they are expecting a child. For health reasons - both theirs and the baby's - they already need to take time off. It isn't like women can claim a back injury when they are pregnant. A few bad employers already put their hands in whether or not health insurance covers birth control. If this stuff is dystopian to you, you are already living in one.

Birth records are already there. Most employers won't look unless law, and I agree this isn't the best way to do it. However, if some time off is mandatory, it'd be reasonable for the state to inform the father he's required to take time off after the baby. Following the law would be his responsibility: The employer would only be forced to comply if they knew.

There are already regulations (either through law or company policies) about adding a child onto your health insurance. Most times, folks have to upgrade their health insurance to a family plan if it is their first child. For other children, they already have to report that to health insurance so the child is covered. A reminder from the insurance that the law requires parental leave as well as maternal leave would be prudent. These folks already are handling your information now.

FMLA is already in place. These folks already handle health records, and as mentioned, the reason can stay hidden from employers to an extent.


Yeah, so what if the father is the sole income earner of his starting family and being forced to take leave (with its attendant pay cut) causes him to miss a rental payment and his family gets evicted?

This is a draconian idea. Besides, employers don't want it! If they didn't want you coming to work, they would lay you off. Otherwise they're going to look the other way. Families living on the edge will do anything to avoid this problem, including leaving the father's name off the birth certificate, if it comes to that.


Don't think that you could, or that you'd want to. There's multiple groups here with conflicting interests and not everyone is going to get everything they want. Does a subset of men's desire to privacy trump both women's right to equality and the child's right to get care from its parents?


Google gives 12 weeks of gender neutral baby bonding time (on top of physical recovery time, for birth moms). Andcdotally (sample size between 5 and 10), men do take less time off than women, but not due to any kind of pressure. With both of my wife's pregnancies I took six weeks, by which time I really wanted to go back to the office so I could just sit quietly all day.


This. Going back to work is kind of a vacation after the first 6 weeks of having a baby. Heck, I’m currently a stay at home dad for my 18 month old while my wife works, and I often think she has it a bit easier :).


Thereby encouraging discrimination against people in committed relationships.

Perhaps increasing the scope of the worse hire will make discrimination impractical, but it is still going on while it's at roughly 50%.

You can somehow make companies unable to discriminate by relationship status, and that would push it into "age bracket" discrimation.

I believe the problem is more fundamental and a cultural solution is required.


Many companies already do discriminate against people in committed relationships by making people work long hours in stressful conditions. At my last job several of the employees started having some serious relationship problems because of how demanding the company was. It's subtle enough to not be recognizable but it's there.


Not always. At the fortune 200 company I work at, they just introduced paid 8 weeks maternity/ paternity leave that can be taken in any form over the following year. All the engineers think it's great(ok the ones past prime childbirth age are a little jealous) , and a VP (a man) just took a substancial leave after the birth of his kid.

It's all about the culture. Get the culture right and the decrimination goes away.


The social and bioligical pressure*.

I think we should strive to have equal maternity/paternity leave, but let’s not deny the origins of the current reality.


Why would fathers have biological pressure to spend less time with their children? I'd take five years paternity leave if I could get it.


Fathers face pressure to provide for their pregnant wife. I too would take five years off to look after babies. However, without a husband of my own, I cannot. The fact is that between my wife and I it makes more sense to invest in my career. We both graduated at the same time with the same degree. We both worked and earned the same salary. Then she wanted a baby. For the past two and a half years we’ve been dealing with very complicated pregnancies and my wife wants more babies. Okay, I love babies, but the fact is that while she could have worked had her pregnancies been easy, she cannot work now. Thus, I work because I am forced to provide for our family, not because I don’t want to spend time with babies. It’s just biological reality that no matter what we do there will be women like my wife who have complicated pregnancies and good men and husbands who will make the sacrifice of not spending time with children to ensure their children’s future. It’s not just about money and food. It’s about securing a place in society, which is not something any government welfare program can provide. Making business connections, colleague relationships, etc now will have a lasting impact on my family’s social status and it simply makes more sense for men to do that. Believe me, my wife and I would love for things to be different, but it really comes down to biology.

When I express my sadness that I have to work and can’t be with children all day long (same complaint my father and grandfather had), my wife often jokes that I should find a husband. It’s funny, but it’s ultimately true. Men are simply better able to do the sorts of things I take on in my family and women at the things my wife does


Fathers don't have any biological pressure, but mothers have a biological pressure to take the time off. Hence, on average, more women will take time off than men.


Maternal investment has a 160M year evolutionary history (first mammals)

Paternal investmemt has at most 6M years (time since split from chimps who have almost none)


Fathers can’t breastfeed.


You are giving a reason not to deny a mother time with a child, not a reason for a father to spend less. There is no "biological pressure" that forces fathers to go back to work.

(as it happens, fathers can breastfeed, albeit not literally. Mothers can pump breastmilk for fathers to feed to the child, or they can use formula. It's a perfectly viable way to raise a child, and people do)


The fact that a factor in baby care taking (breastfeeding) is only possible for females creates a small bias in favor of female care taking. The factor is small, and can be mitigated with little (but not null) effort.

My point is that OPs argument holds some water. Notably, it suffices to support the statement 'women are more likely to want to be care-taker than men'. There remains an argument about magnitude, and compensating effects, but there is a difference.


Sociatel pressure usually comes after (and very much influenced) biological manifestations.


I ask again: what biological pressures would lead to a father spending less time with his children?


I missspoke. I meant bioligical reality which perhaps caused societal reality.


If you're actually interested in theories that have been discussed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_investment


"This article is about parental care in animals. For human parenting, see parenting."


That note is misleading or wrong. Humans are animals and the article contains several explicit references to human parenting.


Fathers can definitely formula feed. Even if mom is pumping, getting the milk into the baby is non trivial.


How is that "biological pressure to spend less time with their children"?


Even better, make it mandatory for everyone. Whether they are having children or not. That would really level the playing field.


The burden for companies isn’t so much paying the employee but rather losing an employee for an extended period of time.


You give men twelve weeks of paid leave after their wife gives birth, most of them are going to take it.


Hence the 'mandatory' party of mandatory leave. You have a kid, you have to take 12 weeks off or whatever number would be agreed on




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