games are a grind everyone thats ever played an mmo knows flipping specific builds/leveled accounts using botting software is some of the most common middle schoolers first money making enterprise

at some level almost all games could be reduced to a version of cookie clicker

good games keep players actively looking for a new meta by tweaking and adding content, similar to the everchanging running of a business

>at some level almost all games could be reduced to a version of cookie clicker

I can think of some interesting counterexamples: in games like Minecraft and Factorio, you create something and are left with an interesting artifact you've designed. In MMOs, you're often left with new friendships.

But I'd be lying if I said I played those games primarily for those outcomes. It feels like each of those games still have some core meat that's shared with cookie clicker, and those other things that come out of it are somehow secondary in my short-term choice to play the game.

ive yet to delve into factorio (afraid itll have the same effect as civ tbh) but minecraft is very mind numbing early to mid game with all the farms esp with mob spawner/villager procurement to create their farms and resource grind. building and exploration in mc alongside amount of mods and great servers do make you forget about how insanely grindy it is for a bit

I got into cookie clicker and such incremental games only last year or so, but it's made me incredibly cynical about a lot of games now, lol.

While I agree in principle, the rewards in a lot of games isn't only the satisfaction in watching numbers go up (= progress, I guess?), but also an enjoyable game loop (I experienced that with Diablo 3 in which you play through the same content over and over again, but the speed of which you eventually blow through thousands of enemies is gratifying) and an unfolding storyline. I had that best with the old Final Fantasy games, where progress was frequently rewarded with cutscenes and the whole game is mostly a storyline you can follow.

On that note the FFVII Remake is a great game to get into.

I disagree with this strongly — good games are not a grind and not all games have leveling mechanics.

> games are a grind everyone thats ever played an mmo knows

You seriously need to expand your pool of games.

GTAV is actually a really interesting game in this regard. It's trying to balance full, immersive gameplay and story, with grind and grow mechanics like a traditional MMO has.

The grind is the least fun part of the game, but also why you keep coming back.

> Full respect to the author, and I'm sure they knew exactly how contrarian they were being.

Yes, Ian Bogost is a respected game designer and developer.

Has he released anything that ever had any success? I just looked on his Wikipedia page, and it looks like he primarily does contract game development as a way to advertise for different political groups. Here's an excerpt from his his studio's website about the themes for some of his games.

airport security, consumer debt disaffected workers, pandemic flu tort reform, suburban errands data compression, the petroleum industry, the politics of nutrition food inspection, factory farming fast food franchise economics, chemical bonding, grass-roots outreach

Cow Clicker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Clicker

> The game serves as a deconstructive satire of social games

> The goal of the game is to earn "clicks" by clicking on a sprite of a cow every six hours. [...] A premium currency known as "Mooney" allows the user to purchase different cow designs and skip the six-hour interval between clicks.

This doesn't really sound "successful" in the traditional sense.

> This doesn't really sound "successful" in the traditional sense.

I'm not sure the "traditional sense" of successful was what he was going for. However, it was successful, nevertheless.

Except that there's a direct line from Cow Clicker to Cookie Clicker and the entire idle games genre. Sure, this wasn't Bogost's intention, but it's hard to deny his influence here.