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> Evidently, sanctions do jack shit.

The THREAT of sanctions hasn't had the desired effect, and if they are enacted, they will take a while before their effect can be felt by the people involved - weeks, months, I don't know. And if they maintain a good relationship with China they may be able to avoid it entirely - although China may then risk its relationship with the rest of the world, if it's found out they're funneling money to Russia.




There have been sanctions on Russia since 2016, and they got harder in 2017. The marginal value of additional sanctions is now greatly reduced. In retrospect, imposing sanctions in 2016 and 2017 was a bad idea.


>In retrospect, imposing sanctions in 2016 and 2017 was a bad idea.

Why?

Russia's response to the global Magnitsky Legislation shows that hitting the power structure in their oligarchs' assets works.


And what did that do to stop their invading Ukraine? Nothing. Nothing at all. That means those sanctions didn't work no matter how much they looked like they were working.


The Magnitsky legislation was a global sanctions response to human rights violations in Russia[1], not the Russian occupation of Crimea.

The point is that they are a prime example of how economic sanctions are effective, especially against Russia. If anything, there should have been the threat of more sanctions for invading, and now with countries like Germany pulling out of energy deals and other action, we have only to see how it plays out.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitsky_legislation


How on Earth can you say with a straight face that they are effective given what's happened now?!

I mean really, that's just gaslighting now.


Then help me understand how my comment is gaslighting? Do you mean wikipedia is wrong?

Or maybe you can finally answer why sanctions made things worse?


Sanctions did not work. They did not prevent bad behavior from Putin's part. There is a full-on war going on because sanctions did not work. They. did. not. work. Who cares what some wikipedia page says! -- use your eyes, see the war, draw conclusions. The conclusion is inescapable: sanctions no worky. Sanctions no worky + claims that they do == gaslighting.


> There is a full-on war going on because sanctions did not work.

The sanctions largely weren't imposed until after the war started. So, it was mostly potential sanctions that didn't work


What are you talking about? Sanctions were imposed in 2014, then more in 2016, then more in 2017. The ratchet has gone one way. The war we're seeing now started this week. Stop lying.


Can always impose more isolation, this isn't anything near a full economic blockade yet


In fact, we don't seem to be willing to impose more isolation. We've imposed as much as we could without getting hurt ourselves too much. Now all options are painful, so also not likely. Also, every additional turn of the screws increases the risk of wider war. So, yeah, I think it was a mistake to impose such severe sanctions for so long over so little, especially with the court filings from special prosecutor Durham.


> The THREAT of sanctions hasn't had the desired effect, and if they are enacted, they will take a while before their effect can be felt by the people involved - weeks, months, I don't know.

Putin doesn't care about Russia economy the way you think he does: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/lavrov-rus...:

> Their intentions are different from ours too. Putin’s goal is not a flourishing, peaceful, prosperous Russia, but a Russia where he remains in charge. Lavrov’s goal is to maintain his position in the murky world of the Russian elite and, of course, to keep his money. What we mean by “interests” and what they mean by “interests” are not the same. When they listen to our diplomats, they don’t hear anything that really threatens their position, their power, their personal fortunes.

Putin's clique actually stands to gain from sanctions. They control the Russian industry that would have to replace the imports.

> And if they maintain a good relationship with China they may be able to avoid it entirely - although China may then risk its relationship with the rest of the world, if it's found out they're funneling money to Russia.

They will: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/23/world/europe/china-russia...

> China on Wednesday criticized the expansion of economic sanctions against Russia, saying that they were unlikely to solve the Ukraine crisis and that they had the potential to harm average people as well as the interests of Beijing.

It's also worth noting that China has been turning inward under Xi, so it's becoming increasingly willing to "risk its relationship[s] with the rest of the world."


Yes, but that's a dangerous game Putin is playing. If the economy continues tanking and he chooses to prolong a possibly unpopular war with casualties on the Russian side, he may lose his favour with the population.

In a way, something similar seems to be happening with Erdogan in Turkey, whose popularity is starting to wane as an effect of the horrible economic situation.

So, I think that long-term, sanctions may help, even though there is no guarantee (but when is there ever?).


What are you suggesting? That I should be patient and trust the system?

The system has failed. People are dying.

This is our Hitler.

Diplomacy was never an option.

Putin recorded his declaration of war before telling the world that diplomacy was still an option.

He will only be stopped by swift and decisive military action from the entirety of the free world.

Anything short of that, and the blood of Ukrainians is on the hands of the Western world too.


He will only be stopped by swift and decisive military action from the entirety of the free world.

Things get complicated when you go toe to toe with a nuclear superpower.

What outcome do you expect when an authoritarian dictator with nukes is cornered and being bombarded by Western military from all sides?


> Things get complicated when you go toe to toe with a nuclear superpower.

Especially one ruled by a egotistical madman with a grudge

That said, nato should have made huge show and noise about the Russian preparations around Ukraine directly causing nato to strengthen and beef up on the eastern boarder, and upped the troops on nato states massively. Things they are doing now. Those things should have been done before.

The sanction timeline is okay, the nato beefing up an communication around it was late.


Putin is just doing what NATO did in Serbia in 90s, I see no difference really, yet these NATO hypocrites get upset when someone else is doing it.

Only countries which can speak out are those which were against the NATO bombing and don't recognize Kosovo, everyone else has blood on their hands even without Ukraine.


It should be noted that Russia, as a member of the UN security council, voted in support of international military intervention in Kosovo.


> Putin is just doing what NATO did in Serbia in 90s

I didn't realize that he was intervening in an ongoing genocide


That's what he claims Ukrainians are doing to separatists.


Ethnic cleansing. Genocide triggers a responsibility to intervene, under the UN charter.

Aren't euphemisms wonderful?


You mean like UN intervened in Srebrenica or Rwanda, that UN charter?


My point exactly.


> Putin is just doing what NATO did in Serbia in 90s

Well, no.

He may be claiming loosely similar things, but people can claim similar things when doing radically different ones.




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