I'm super sceptical about VR for anything outside of "dock" games like car racing and spaceship simulators and still am. I have however, got a pair of Xreal "AR" glasses that are basically a pair of sunglasses that allow you to have a 120" projector monitor (or set of monitors) wherever you want and they are absolutely awesome and I can definitely see that kind of product becoming the new normal. The ergonomics, price ($399), flexibility to take wherever you want and productivity are just so much better than traditional monitors and televisions.

It is absolutely amazing to just plug in a pair to your phone/tablet/computer laid down in bed and watch a film projected on to your ceiling. People are hooking them up to Steam Decks and they also say it's amazing just being able to play whatever game they want, wherever they want, on a massive screen. Going to be a game changer for anyone who spends a lot of time travelling or commuting on public transport but will definitely filter into the general office and home spaces as well. Will save both companies and consumers a substantial amount of money.

These glasses have been such a game changer for me that I now have ordered a Steam Deck and, depending on how well I get on with SteamOS and Linux, may end up selling my Macbook Pro which would be the first time I've not had an Apple computer since around 2008/9 (save for a few years when I was super poor and couldn't afford one).

What kind of tasks do you feel the Xreal "monitor" is good for? I looked at this product recently, but it seems like the resolution is basically 2x1920x1080 for the space + the screen. If you're used to using 1-2 4k monitors to look at e.g. multiple panes of text + graphs, this seems like it would be a big step backwards, like using a 10 year-old TV as a monitor. But some people seem to love it so maybe I'm missing something.

Anything you want, but of course it's all subjective. You can have up to three monitors if you're using the Nebula app, so that's three 1080p monitors. You can't see them all simultaneously though, you have to tilt your head to reveal the left and right monitors similar to how you would with real life monitors except for you don't have them in your peripheral vision. It's definitely not as crisp as a 4k monitor but I think some of the lack of resolution can be made up for by the sheer size of the screen. I am also willing to trade the lack of crispness for complete elimination of neck and shoulder ache from hunching and also the ability to have this anywhere I want. I'm planning on backpacking and doing the digital nomad thing indefinitely so this is really ideal.

One thing that has been surprising is that I thought eye strain might be a problem but I've not really had any discomfort and I've actually gone back to using light mode in the day time and dark mode at night time which is something I thought I'd never do having been using dark mode for everything for years.

I think I really want a pair of these - is there any place one can try them out?

Depends where you're based I'm guessing, I'm from the UK and had to order them via the Amazon US website. For what it's worth I've never had any issues returning anything to Amazon, even stuff from the US (although the few times I've had to do that I've bought the US stuff via the UK website rather than the US one so don't know if it would be different).

Ironically, one of the reasons I want this is that I have (4) USB-based AOC monitors. Two of them showed up with broken screens, and this is the only problem I have ever had returning anything to Amazon - but thats because its AOC thats refusing to honor a replacement and amazon claims since its a 3rd party its out of their hands.

Once I canceled my PRIME account, and then amazon charged me the $99 after I canceled.

I called them, demanded a refund AND a $25 inconvenience fee for me having to go through the process to get my refund... and they paid it!

Monitors are a pain in the arse. I bought a 65 inch tv last year to use as a monitor that I'm now selling and it's difficult to shift. You can't really ship it because the risk of it being damaged is high so no-one will give you a reasonable quote with insurance. So I'm going to have to sell it to someone locally, probably at a super low price. Looking forward to never having this problem ever again with this new tech. Between projectors and these glasses I think TVs are going to become obsolete tech within the next two decades. It's only a matter of time until someone makes an app that allows you and all your mates to watch whatever you want on your own individual glasses but in sync with each other. And for the people who want a permanent glasses off experience at home I think laser projectors are going to come down in price and become commonplace. TVs are going to go the way of the dodo.

Imagine when you have a UX for large screen throws in glasses which can be synced/networked whereby you can throw up the "wife - yes! IA M COOKING channel to her to prove you're chopping what she asked! GEESH!?

vs - swiping back over to the gaming channel with your buddies and be like "Ill revive you in two seconds, bitch, GEESH - ill be there as soon as I am done with my status report on vegetable cuts Management is demanding!"

I mean, have you ever tried one? That seems to be missing from your post.

Some people think stereoscopic depth in visual mediums is more entertaining or interesting than flat images. The same way some people preferred color television over black and white when it became available.

Adding a z-axis (depth) is a higher resolution, higher bandwidth signal.

Absolutely, and I do love the higher bandwidth signal. It seems to have a seriously limited practicality at this point, though. I watched a movie and that was neat, even though it’s flat it was kind of nice to have it be so… Immersive, I guess. Sound cancelling and vision cancelling at the same time is pretty cool.

The games are very novel but something like tears of the kingdom is far more engaging and gratifying for me. Maybe that’s because I grew up with flat games and it’s where my brain is most comfortable.

So, I don’t really watch tv or movies (maybe once every two months at most), I don’t game much unless with my kids (doesn’t work in VR/AR), and otherwise I’m not sure what kind of individual activities I could get up to where it would be useful in its current state. Or even a moderately more advanced state perhaps. A big snag for me is that you can’t really do it with people.

Watching a 2D film on a stereo 3D VR device sorta makes sense that it's not super interesting. Other than being able to resize the screen and reposition it, you're not getting much.

The games are crappy right now, I agree.

I think few die-hard VR or AR enthusiasts would argue that the content and use cases have a long way to go. Most games are either more akin to going to a paintball course or playing DDR than they are similar to sitting down to play a classic video game. Which is a fun experience but clearly isn't gaming.

And the blockbuster 2D game ports to VR are few and far between, and it's not fun playing Skyrim for the 50th time just because now it's stereo 3D.

For me, I've found that stereo video recorded on high end stereoscopic 180 degree camera setups is really compelling. For example video recorded using ZCam K2 Pro. The only studios really using that tech extensively currently are for adult video. For me the best of those experiences feels like the future, the next big medium. If it were possible to combine 6 degrees of freedom with stereo video, I am convinced it'd be immediately successful, but I still think 3 degree of freedom stereo video that's possible today is far superior to flat video.

I can envision future Hollywood or Netflix productions where you feel like you're watching from an invisible drone floating right there in the scene, with full depth and a sense of real scale. It will take new artistic direction, things like panning the camera become nausea-inducing for some viewers but incredibly presence-inducing for others (if moved slowly enough and with a gimbal). Cuts feel different, too many fast cuts too quickly are much more difficult to visually process in stereo than on a laptop screen. But on the other hand, some editing effects like a dissolve are incredibly trippy and a new type of experience in VR. Seeing double vision where both scenes have depth is really interesting. Anyway, it's closer to watching a play in a theater or being at Sleep No More than watching a TV show.

The bottleneck right now is content and production costs, that's about it.

> Watching a 2D film on a stereo 3D VR device sorta makes sense that it's not super interesting

Yeah it wasn’t life changing by any means, but pretty nice in a way. Like if I was single, I might actually skip the TV and just do that? I’m not certain. I liked that it forced me to be focused on it. I’ve got the ADHD pretty bad apparently, so sitting and watching a movie is kind of like trying to put a cat in a box. My brain insists on doing ANYTHING ELSE and grabs into virtually any other activity or thought or whatever, but in a VR headset or a theatre somehow that isn’t the case.

The idea of watching movies or shows as though you were actually there is spectacular. I think we’ll get there too, but I expect it’s a while away from where we are. AI will likely play a huge role in stitching multiple camera angles together and filling in the gaps, and that technology arrived a lot sooner than I expected, so… Maybe the integration of production and presentation technologies will follow suit. Frankly, I’m old enough that things simply move faster than I’m used to now. I have to reassess my priors for how quickly things can happen.

What you’re saying about stereo video sounds totally compelling. And not surprising it’s popular in the adult industry. Sort of a side note I guess, but when I see what’s possible with AI and imagine what’s around the corner with these technologies… Good luck to all the 20 year olds with raging hormones and a little disposable income. If porn addiction is a thing now, just wait. Maybe we’re what, 10 years away from generating personal porn with a personally designed digital partner?

I digress though. We’ll get there when we get there and deal with it when we do. I’m glad my boys might miss the worst of it in their most hormonal years.

There are already compelling VR games, but they are heavily outnumbered in fun but shallow arcade experiences and games which would be bargain-basement tier on any other platform. I highly recommend trying Echo Arena before it is taken offline in August. The player base is as awful as you would expect unmoderated 13-year-olds online to be, but if you mute everyone and just explore the mechanics it is mind-blowing and other-worldly. Unfortunately due to the weightlessness this is one that will definitely be off limits to those who struggle with nausea in VR.

Yeah it's just a matter of subjectivity. I got Rift CV1 at launch and played Echo Arena, it was more like going IRL paintball or bowling or playing laser tag to me than a video game. I felt like I was really doing an activity. Not just laying back on a couch moving my wrist in millimeter increments lazily to play Elden Ring. I like both but I prefer VR experiences that don't require full body movement.

If I'm going to do a full body experience I for the most part just prefer real life activities with the ability to feel and physically touch things. The one big exception I had was Windlands.

Absolutely it's different from a typical video game experience, I didn't mean to say that it was a replacement for a traditional video game. It's something that really does combine elements of video games and IRL activities into a wholly new kind of experience, and to me that's a more compelling argument for VR gaming than a regular video game but more immersive. Even if Echo Arena in particular doesn't tickle your fancy, I think it shows what category of experience is possible even with current VR technology.

Thanks for the Windlands recommendation, I will have to check it out.

You'd think they'd have some demo units you could try, but every single one I've ever seen has been locked up like Fort Knox.

> I like the idea of an AR experience for enabling better work environments

Same here, but I don't think the ecosystem/market is ready for serious work, it's all too brittle and the UX isn't nearly there yet. So I'm waiting.

> Where is the market? How many of these things sell? What do people actually do with them?

But I do own a HP Reverb G2, mainly for playing simulation games like flight simulators, and racing simulators. Once you get used to having a spatial understanding of the environment because of virtual reality, it's near impossible to go back to using traditional monitors against. The immersion is 100x better and your skill increases as well, just with a VR headset (in the genres I play).

But outside of simulation gaming, I have 0 use cases for VR, it's basically a fun toy at this time. But I think probably in the future there will be more use cases, but remains to be seen.

Yep, for me its also just flight and race sim. Even though I don't really tend to use it very often anymore. It's cumbersome to wire up and especially in the summer the G2 gets very hot - plus the added heat of the PC driving this beast!

My teenager plays the Quest 2 daily. Sample size of one (sorta), but he plays with all of his friends. He's in our living-room for a few sessions each day. And, FWIW, it seems like an intense cardio workout for him each time, which I like.

This is funny to me....

Back in the mid 1980s I started my gaming journey... I would sit and play games for hours and my 2400 baud modem helped me dominate in Populous, got me connected to BBSs to play games, got me on PCLink (the precursor to AOL), and got me grounded for a month for running up a $926 long distance phone bill for calling into BBSs in San Jose from Tahoe...

My dad yelled at me and told me "I was wasting my life sitting in front of the computer all day"

Years later after I made a pretty cool career in computers, including doing game testing at intel, designing datacenters for NAMCO and Lucas etc... my dad apologized for saying that to me...

So its funny that your kid is getting his cardio in VR! We are living in the future!

I guess it helps that I too started computers early. My first being a Commodore 64 and basically every system in between then and now. So, I'm more inclined to let my kids use technology than my parents (who were very welcoming of tech) were. I still force them to go outside and eat dirt, like I had to as a kid (J/k on the dirt bit).

Ha! I ate dirt in the 70s as a toddler! and spiders!

Eating dirt actually helps build the gut-biome. and it helps kids stay healthy through fortifying the immune system (this is why all the 'hand-sanitizers' are actually worse for human health)

But I was lucky - I grew up within 500 feet of Lake Tahoe, and would just walk out the door, go up Ward Creeek to the backside of Alpine Meadows, setup booby traps for hikers (trip wires... it was the 1980s..)

But I coerced my dad to buy a machine for his "business" and then I took over the machine and played tons of games - but would also be 'kicked out of the house until dinner' at times and just explore the forest, swim in the lake, or steal boats.

Again, this was like 1986 and I stole a bunch of boats because my dad was a big general contractor who built and cared for a crap-load of lake front properties with boat-houses, and I knew where my dads clients were all the time, so I could steal their boats for joy rides... and for some of the houses I had the keys.

It was a common thing in Tahoe in the 1980s to break into vacation homes and throw "keggers"

> So what’s the motivation to get into this space? What is the opportunity that Apple sees, for example?

I think for Apple, it's just another new personal computing platform. Just like personal media devices, phones, tablets, TVs, smartwatches etc. They may not necessarily see a big opportunity. They simply cannot afford to ignore a new computing platform.

My fear of buying any of these is the lock in. I expect them to be like my TV. I plug in my streaming service, PS, xbox or any other input and it transforms my world. But now I have to choose if I want VR for my PS games or if I want to enter Meta's new game collection. By I already know what games I like, I don't want to adopt new ones because of my VR platform choice. If I want it all I need to pay $400 x 3? No. They can keep their ecosystems.

I think the tech is not there yet, but imagine you could do everything you can do with a smartphone, but without holding a physical device, except maybe for input. Your entire vision is the screen. Virtual objects are seamlessly embedded into the environment. It's unobtrusive and ubiquitous.

I think that is the endgame for AR. And I think it'll be the next major platform, replacing smartphones.

It won't replace smartphones for a long, long time because it just isn't feasible to pack enough battery power into a pair of glasses to run the screens plus do all the processing work without making the headset super heavy and/or dorky looking. What will most likely happen, is you will have your phone in your pocket doing all the work which will then relay the video to the glasses which just decode and display it, first via cable (already products available on the market that do this) and then in a few years it will be wireless.

It's been very interesting to discuss the potential future of VR/AR with software pros and hardware pros. Us software people seemingly tends to "ignore" the real limitations of current battery/power-delivery/power-draw(?) technology.

We've seen massive improvements over the years, but when talking about the size/weight of glasses it definitely seems like the next "frontier" for the battery challenges.

Yeah, according to google a pair of raybans weighs 40 grams and a pair of xreal air weight twice as much at 79g. I'm a massive fan of the latter but already that weight is noticeable on your face as being heavier than a standard pair of glasses and this is a device which has no battery. All the power comes from a cable connected to whatever device you're using. I can wear a pair all day but I don't think you could go too much heavier before it starts getting uncomfortable for prolonged use. I think it's going to be a massive struggle to get these down to a decent weight with battery. Viture's solution to this is a neckband containing the battery and the brains - I could definitely see this kind of solution becoming commonplace.

https://xreal.com

https://www.viture.com/

Personal computers were considered just toys with very little real-world value for a long time too. And you might be limiting your thinking with VR/AR. Do you or anyone you know use face filters? That's AR. Lots of the rising generation are already stoked in VR/AR. Also Meta Quest 2 has sold 15 million headsets, that's hardly something to scoff at.

Ah, 15 million is more than I would have guessed. I’m admittedly out of the loop on this stuff.

I had a feeling the rising generation is into this, though I would have been too. I suppose what I wonder is if something that appeases that enthusiasm and anticipation can actually be developed. But perhaps for kids and young adults it doesn’t need to be amazing — it just needs to be more immersive than a TV.

My son has a Quest 2 and never uses it, and we got it used in great condition for $250 CAD. That left me feeling like these things are failing to thrive, but it’s very anecdotal.

It's an entirely new category. When you're an Apple or Facebook, there isn't much further you can go with mobile phones or violating users' privacy respectively, so you need to explore new markets to expand.

IMO AR is the truly useful application of the technology, but the hardware needs to be basically goggles that can stay on your head all day and we're nowhere near that. VR is primarily useful for videogames and porn. Lots of money in gaming and porn, but not widely applicable like a HUD visible at all times.

I’m with you on AR being truly useful. If that ball could be knocked out of the park, the implications for countless activities would be huge.

Imagine you wanted to build a geodesic greenhouse and your vision could be populated with the pieces you need next, where they go, hardware you need, where parts were last seen, etc. My brain would benefit so much from being kept on track like that.

They want to surveil what you see so they can sell it back to you as ads

Probably the first company that creates somewhat usable AR will secure a good share of future market

With how quickly AI has taken over image creation, it will soon be able to create AR/VR in real time...

But if its able to "watch" a bunch of say, mechanics, do their work and learn from that - then it will be able to put pertinent AR info on screen for people to see.

I think whomever does a good job on an AI backed AR system is going to own a chunk of that space for a good amount of profit to come.

I absolutely must have one to display on my bookcase

I guess the market isn't there because most of the devices kinda suck. They are bulky and ugly, glasses compatibility is not 100%, some people still get vertigo. Those devices are not attractive to the buyers at all IMO.

I'm kinda curious about the Apple VR headset - I expect it to be marketed more towards creative professional audience and less towards gamers. The few VR games I've tried have been unimpressive, but maybe there is some future for this tech in other areas?

I've heard that vertigo is mostly a solved problem, you just need to make sure the VR system is properly calibrated for your face, e.g. the distance of your eyes and such. That makes sharing such a system much harder than sharing other devices, which might explain why they haven't caught on nearly as fast as people expected. You can buy one PlayStation for the whole family but need to buy every member their own Quest.