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I feel this everytime one of these articles comes out, but it seems totally bizarre to me that we rely on private enterprises to deal with state-level attacks simply because they are digital and not physical.

If a Chinese fighter jet shot down a FedEx plane flying over the Pacific, that would be considered an attack on US sovereignty and the government would respond appropriately. Certainly we wouldn't expect FedEx to have to own their own private fleet of fighter jets to protect their transport planes. No one would be like, "Well it's FedEx's fault for not having the right anti-aircraft defenses."

But somehow, once it hits the digital ___domain we're just supposed to accept that Microsoft is required to defend themselves against China and Russia.




> If a Chinese fighter jet shot down a FedEx plane flying over the Pacific, that would be considered an attack on US sovereignty and the government would respond appropriately

But if a bunch of Chinese people robbed a US bank, let's say the federal reserve, causing enormous financial damage but not loss of life, the response would be similar. Especially so if their link to the actual Chinese government was suspected couldn't reliably be proven.

Governments catch foreign agents somewhat regularly, and those captures don't lead to an all-out war.


Perhaps - but, whether or not people from $ForeignNation are involved, U.S. banks (or other corporations, or ordinary citizens) generally do not need to have their own armed police/security forces to deal with armed robberies. Nor their own DA's, courts, etc.

Vs. any "cyber" crime? All that nice stuff about "...establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare..." falls on the floor, and...YOYO.


> generally do not need to have their own armed police/security forces to deal with armed robberies.

They kind of do, no?

Also, preventing crime and carrying out criminal justice are two very different things.


It's absolutely the responsibility of financial institutions to secure their premises and systems. Banks have massive security departments, guards, access restrictions, systems to detect fraud, vaults etc. The government only gets involved once a crime is reported, not in securing facilities.

In fact, inadequately protecting their assets from mistakes or attacks can lead to SEC fines on top of losses,

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2013-222

If there is an attack in progress, the police will intervene, of course. But if it leads to a financial institution collapsing because all their money was in the one place and they weren't insured, then that's the fault of the bank.


Are you ready to leave your authentication services, acl, patching procedures, tech stack choice, and network monitoring and management in the hands of the government? Because if you are not, you are asking the government to perform duties without the necessary means.


Not true. It’s just that it doesn’t happen fast. This is just one example, there are many:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/four-russian-government-emplo...


Firstly, no infrastructure was attacked or destroyed, or lives lost, unlike your example of FedEx plane. Some US govt folks had their emails read.

Secondly, the US does this all the time, even to friendly countries, so it's hard to justify harsher measures.


> no infrastructure was attacked or destroyed

Value was destroyed in both cases. Users having their private data stolen have been harmed, the company's brand value is harmed, and they may lose users over this.

> or lives lost

Lives can be lost and real people can be harmed if their private information is stolen and used against them. There are dissidents and journalists in repressive countries whose safety depends on information security.


The digital ___domain is fundamentally lower stakes and harder to protect than the physical one. It is good that we do not respond to cyber attacks like we do physical ones because we would have escalated to nuclear war over a decade ago. The scope and volume of cyberattacks is very high but my understanding is that the US has a correspondingly high volume of outbound attacks as well.


Fundamentally? A power plant exploding or dam collapsing would kill way more people and cost far more in property damage than a single FedEx airplane with two crew being shot down.


Those all (currently) require a lot more than stealing a key from M$. Maybe stuxnet would be a better example for your point? Those uranium centrifuges Iran had were very expensive.


I have no idea how you would get a dam to collapse with only a laptop and a network connection. As for the power plant, the operators would have to be blind and deaf to let a plant get destroyed.

The real threat is a cascading power grid failure due to undersupply, e.g. coordinated forced plant shutdowns. A few days without electricity at a large scale means reduced availability of medical and emergency services, no running water, failing refrigeration, no stoves/ovens for cooking for most of the population, no working gas pumps, no electronic payment, no banking (no way to get cash) etc.


>I have no idea how you would get a dam to collapse with only a laptop and a network connection.

In a world where Stuxnet took out uranium centrifuges, and we've had actual PoC's of exploits that resulted in generators fragging themselves, I find your statement to be of the most shocking form of naivete I've heard in a while.

And in point of fact, the network connection would probably be for disabling alarms and control systems in order to mask work done to weaken the integrity of the structure itself. Physical and digital is inextricably linked.


A decently powerful generator is a massive machine. There is simply no way that it can destroy itself without causing abnormal behavior that will be noticed by on site personnel - noise, vibrations etc.


And yet, deadly disasters do happen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayano-Shushenskaya_power_stat...

Key: "It seems they were used to the high levels of vibration" - Diane Vaughan wrote an important book that introduced the term "normalisation of deviance" as a factor in the Challenger Launch Decision, a more famous complex accident.

Another way of putting it is that "all complex systems operate in a degraded mode all the time", paraphrasing Adrian Colyer: https://blog.acolyer.org/2016/02/10/how-complex-systems-fail


I vaguely recall seeing a video years ago of the demonstrated hack on a generator causing it to suffer a rapid unscheduled disassembly event.

It happened very fast, and was very unsubtle. Probably not enough time for site personnel to respond before damage was done.


There are multiple cases of nation states blowing passenger jets out of the sky and commandeering ships without it being treated as an act of war.


Recently too,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

As far as I know Malaysia is not at war with Russia.


Shooting down a commercial airline from the US to Asia with a US Congressman onboard did not actually cause WWIII: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007


… and Russian, Chinese, French, whoever private entities have to defend themselves against the NSA, CIA, GCHQ…

Espionage is a dirty game.

What I always find interesting is how the US has taken on a strategy of indicting individual Chinese/Russian hackers for acting in the interests of their countries, whenever they can be identified by DoJ.

This policy is interesting, because, as we all know, turnabout is fair play.

How long before retired NSA operators are advised to never travel outside the US lest they be at risk of being picked up on international arrest warrants from China?


I'd say NSA probably already have such policy from decades ago. And all intelligence agency worthing their salt should more or less have done the same.


Isn't that the idea behind CISA?


Very much no. CISA defends the federal executive branch and advises critical infrastructure. They don’t and shouldn’t have a proactive role in defending private companies.


I don't think so? What makes you think it is?


NSA


They’re explicitly forbidden from doing things like that. As they should be; do you really want the government to have access to the kind of private corporation data they would need in order to defend them?




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