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I am 100% confident that deporting all foreign beggars in Sweden will solve the problem of foreign beggars in Sweden. I don't really care if this doesn't get to the "bottom of the problem" or whatever. I (or the Swedish people in general) simply cannot be held responsible for the suffering of the entire fucking world.

Your links don't make any sense. The DDR used slave labor? Ingvar Kamprad uses various tax avoidance schemes? Did you choose them simply because they are related to Sweden?




3 Free movement of capital

4 Free movement of services

5 Free movement of people

    5.1 Free movement of workers

    5.2 Free movement for the non-economically active

    5.3 The Schengen Area

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms_%28European_Unio...

I also invite you to read the labels of ie. the plying wooden chairs and crude mugs from which all those world-mesmerising profits arise.


What is your point? Do you think I'm somehow ignorant of what the EU means? I know about the free movement of people - I reject it since it has negative consequences for me!

For some reason you are unwilling to come right out and simply say what you think about IKEA, thus leaving me to read your mind. Presumably your argument goes something like this:

"Ingvar Kamprad is Swedish, Ingvar Kamprad used forced labor in the GDR, therefore all Swedish people must pay for these sins by putting up with foreign beggars on their streets".


Your presumption is wrong. I gave examples of free movements of products, services and capital. If you are ready to accept these freedoms, you should also accept the other items packaged in this very same deal: the free movement of people.

The Swiss also like to cherry pick the good stuff from the Europe, just like everybody. Not taking responsibility of the economic externalities, as the euphemism goes, is not sustainable. Economically speaking of the West, the short-term advantages of this short-sightedness are over.


> If you are ready to accept these freedoms

Who says I am? I am not Ingvar Kamprad.


Democracy and freedom are double-edged swords by their very nature.You are perfectly entitled as an individual to reject those freedoms.

I think you as an individual then should be slapped with a visa requirement to visit all other nations in Europe. Then you'll have fun strutting around with your papers to all the different embassies - which I guess you'd certainly prefer than having foreign beggars around. Or you could stay in Sweden forever if you don't even want to do that. We certainly wouldn't mind.


What a brilliant "solution": if somebody does something you are not happy with... just deport them!


Certainly. Foreign criminals are deported all the time.


You (and I) are responsible if you are enjoying your privileges while – through no fault of their own - others suffer.

Sweden and the west got rich through luck and exploitation. You are privileged. You are lucky. Recognize that and act on it.


I'm extremely happy to see that there are still generous people around. You see, I'm African, and when I see the current mess in my continent, I think that we should do something about it.

Since you disagree with Muzza, I would suggest that we create a partnership in which we bring every african beggar to your country (Sweden?). That's a lot, and it'll probably severely mess up your country, but hey, here's your opportunity to act on your words!

/sarcasm

On a more serious note, would you want all the beggars in the world to go to Sweden? Why not? Oh, because it's too much and it wouldn't be good for Sweden right? Well every person has a different tolerance threshold for "what is good for Sweden". Maybe someone would argue with you that making Sweden an asylum for all the world's beggars is the ultimate way of repairing for your sins, and then call you a fascist for not wanting to do it.

Well you're doing exactly the same with Muzza. What you consider something very reasonable (hosting Roumanian beggars and providing them with apartments or whatever) is seen as unacceptable by someone else.

I guess I disliked your patronizing tone: people have different opinions and tolerance, and yours is no better or worse than any other.


West did not get rich through luck and exploitation. Particularly Europe didn't. If you look at the map, it's just some tiny backwater at the end of the world with little natural resources. Yes, there was plenty of exploitation but that's hardly unique to the western culture. And European peasants were the ones exploited for the most part.

West has gotten rich because of its culture which allowed for development of science and technology (or at least hindered it the least), private property and enterprise, stable governments, honored contracts, and -- perhaps the cause of all those freedoms -- no single hegemon for much of its history and so a ruthless competition between the states on all field.

You're confusing cause with effect. It's not exploitation that made Europeans do much better than the rest of the world, they were already doing much better which allowed them to conquer the world.


To the degree I am privileged as a Westerner is not the result of luck or exploitation. It is the result of a very specific tradition of rights and governance. My obligation is to fight to protect and continue that tradition.


I am certainly not responsible in any way for (for instance) Romania's poverty. There was this guy called Ceaușescu; he had a little bit to do with it.


It is an open secret, that as all dictators, the Ceaușescus were also maintained by powers outside Romania. His wife was elected as member of the Illinois Academy of Sciences, besides multiple doctorate honoris, ie. from the Faculty of Sciences of Nice (and if I remember correctly, member of the Académie). Seemed like an approval of Western Europe, so to me it seems, that they had a little bit to do with the current situation. Actually little has changed since at the core, despite appearances.


And once again the Swede* must atone for the sins of others (such as the Académie française).

* Or more generally: white Western European.


that may be so, but the actual beggars are not at fault, and this is important. simply because someone was not born within the borders of your country does not make them any less human. This is the point. A swedish life is worth no more or less than a romanian one. Your nationalist attitude is baseless.

You happen to be born in sweden, they happen to be born in romania. If the tables were turned I'm sure you wouldn't think too highly of people with your opinion.


The tables are turned. Someone born in Western Europe might well lead a life of poverty while a Japanese or South Korean person will have a great education, get a job straight out of university, and not want for material needs. Will South Korea or Japan donate their money to help such people, or allow them immigrate to their safe countries? They will not. Do you think the Chinese will?


So basically, you think we shouldn't have welfare because you're not allowed to immigrate to China.


I don't know how you got that out of what I said. I think welfare is quite good.


> that may be so, but the actual beggars are not at fault, and this is important. simply because someone was not born within the borders of your country does not make them any less human.

I have never denied anyone their humanity, only insisted that I shouldn't have to support them.

> A swedish life is worth no more or less than a romanian one.

If we are all equal, why do the left insist that a Romanian arriving in Sweden should have more entitlements than a Swedish citizen?


While you basically built this country? It happens that Swedes who are actually paid to think(or paid at all) don't often share your views. This might be because they are not expecting life to be a free ride just because they were born here.


1) It does not follow from "I am not responsible for Romania's poverty" that I claimed "I built Sweden". Läs om, läs rätt. 2) I am not unemployed, nor paid to work with my hands. 3) Even unemployed people and manual laborers can have valid views on things, you elitist. 4) I never once mentioned wanting a free ride!


so where do you stand on Brevik, both motive and method?


The answer is mu ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28negative%29 ). There is no link between mass murder and the deportation of criminals; my stance on Breivik is irrelevant.


motive vs method.




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