Last time I was shopping for home insurance, an agent told me I was too close to a canyon, which I thought was strange because there are no canyons near me. They sent me a screenshot of the fire danger map where clearly it had the wrong ___location / coordinates for my address (they thought I was about a mile from where I really live).
I pointed them to my address on Google Maps which has my correct ___location, but they said their system isn't wrong and the address coordinate mapping can't be changed anyway. Go away.
Then another insurance company told me the same thing. I thought maybe I was going to be uninsurable completely based off of a computer error.
Luckily, Lemonade has smarter systems and got my ___location right, so I was able to get insured with them. But I'm not sure what I would do without lemonade.
> Luckily, Lemonade has smarter systems and got my ___location right, so I was able to get insured with them. But I'm not sure what I would do without lemonade.
Insurers with better information will be able to judge risk better, so they can undercut competitors on lower risk or avoid taking on higher risk. That really is what a competitive insurance market should be like right?
In the long run, yes, but Lemonade and other insurtechs have struggled to actually get that right. Their loss ratio (claims paid / premium collected) has historically been close to or above 100% (i.e. losing money), though I think Lemonade has finally been getting that under control recently.
Distribution is also a huge factor in who wins. You can have the best product, but if you can't get it out to enough people, whether direct to consumer or through agents, you're going to struggle. A lot of startups have focused on direct-to-consumer plays, but there's value in taking a hybrid approach to distribution and incorporating agents into your distribution strategy. It's surprising sometimes, for those of us with a tech background, to see how sticky human insurance agents have proven to be. I can make a better potato chip than Frito-Lay, but if I can’t get stores to stock it, it doesn’t matter how good it is.
Cute idea, but hopefully (for that customer) Lemonade’s systems aren’t so smart that they figure out that they’re the only insurer willing to sell to that address.
>That really is what a competitive insurance market should be like right?
Should be. But states like California cap insurance rates in such a way that insurers are dropping (non-renewing) policies, since they can't charge market rates.
California is one of the capitalistic states out there. But they have politicians, government, regulation, like any other state. Insurers are also rapidly leaving Florida, so it might not just be about regulation, or those two states do lots of regulation, or something in between.
Its about reality. Both states should be.preventing public housing where reoccuring signifixant hazards effect populations. Instead, they.try to manipulate the insurance market.
You have to define reoccurring and significant. Much of CA is on a fault line, so should everybody move to the desert where it’s scorching hot but a bit safer?
They are not oversimplifying it. The law says they can’t use forward looking projections, only historical data to build rates. Coupled with climate change the CA insurance commission certainly doesn’t understand economics and they’ve created a recipe for failure.
It's because California pushes their FAIR plan which is expensive and has terrible coverage. It's a corrupt and unethical solution for the state to recoup its budget deficit.
Do you have evidence that they make money on their plan? My impression is that insurance of last resort isn’t cheap to provide, they’re only getting the people that were too high risk to qualify for a cheaper commercial plan.
No, only my anecdote. The state is offering significantly reduced coverage for more than double the cost of previous coverage. Getting the state plan still requires you to get additional private coverage in order to satisfy mortgage insurance requirements. I think it would be impossible for a layman to just give you "evidence" that will fit whatever arbitrary checkbox is formally needed. I cannot fathom a way the state isn't profiting here and both the state and insurance companies are exposing homeowners to incredible burdens.
Now you frame this like I am too high risk or people in this capacity are too high risk, but that is the whole problem. Insurance cos are inconsistently making these determinations and the state's governance is directly responsible for the lack of regulation and enforcement. Nothing in my area has changed, but the insurance company has enacted the equivalent of ex post facto evaluation due to the state of CA. As example, my roof in great condition, passed inspection when purchase property a few years ago. I don't have certificates or invoices for repairs done to it in the 50 years of my home's life because I've only owned the property for a few years. The insurance company canceled my insurance stating I refused to provide such an invoice. They also claimed I'm now in a dangerous fire zone (I'm not) which I wasn't a year ago. They also claimed to need invoice of repairs for my plumbing, which again, is in wonderful condition. They stated simply providing inspection receipts wouldn't cut it and expensive certificates were needed. Anyways, I doubt you will read this but it's ridiculous and I'm not the only one in this state going through it.
I did read it, thanks for laying out your experience.
The evidence I’d look for is something like their revenue vs payout over maybe the last 5 years?
I think a lot of this stuff can be very unintuitive, because we look around, and everything seems fine, and nothing seems to have changed, but they’re operating at a bulk statistical level, and their models revised on recent trends are probably telling them that they can’t profitably insure you for the amounts they’re allowed to charge. Some of that is that labor to rebuild/replacement cost has gotten much more expensive (we see that in our insurance rate changes despite being in an area with very little catastrophic risk).
And CA politicians’ response is probably some crowd pleasing but ultimately harmful “you can’t profiteer off our people, you’re not allowed to raise rates more than 3%” or something. So the only winning move becomes not to play except in the areas where you can make that work.
It does sound like they were just trying to find a way that they could cancel your policy without getting in trouble with the state insurance commission, though I don’t know enough about insurance to say if/why they’d need to.
They’re losing money on it actually but you missed the obvious. Liberals want everything privatized to remove profit incentive. That’s the reason they’re creating a uncompetitive environment, to kill business. For further proof, see the recent minimum wage increase.
A terrible idea when the majority of insured have a requirement to their mortgage. This is an avenue that actually warrants government intervention in the form of regulation. In my case the carrier willfully misinterpreted a map's fire risk in order to cancel me because they want to manipulate higher prices and the government has skin in the game with their own expensive, low coverage, crap plan. Government intervention in the form of state sponsored competition has bred corruption.
If Google is right 98% of the time, companies might find it not worth the cost to develop and use a better system, leaving the 2% of people caught in the crack unable to get basic services as all companies go off of Google's data. This is a huge fairness problem.
This problem exists across the board, and it’s due to people using, and in some cases abusing, statistics. Instead of using statistics/probability to answer questions, we should instead not use it at all or have a limit on how much a decision can be made based on chance.
I bought a house in when internet mapping was less mature, but still important, and many of the online data sources simply did not have the address. This was good at first, since very few people seemed to have been able to find the open house and bid against us, but it was annoying in the long run because you'd ask for Internet service to be installed and the technicians would blow off 2 appointments driving around the city lost and eventually you would have to talk them to the ___location turn-by-turn.
The solution was to complain vociferously to the folks that maintained data sources. In those days it was Google, someone else, and it turned out the remainder of the defective commercial products were put out by a predecessor of, I think, the folks who eventually published or supplied the data for HERE We Go. Basically, every few months I would call them or write messages to them, social engineering who might be in a position to fix it. They did respond pretty quickly, for a bigcorp, but it took a few years for the prior versions of their database to cycle out of usage.
Thank goodness you learned early that those other insurance companies were incompetent and unwilling to work with their customers even in the face of obvious mistakes on their part. If they had accepted you, you wouldn't want to have had to deal with trying to get money out of them, especially when you'd already be dealing with a stressful situation. They really did you a favor by rejecting you, and you now know to stay away from them when it comes to other types of insurance too.
Reminds me of a few years back when my dad tried to get ATT DSL for my grandpa’s house. ATT told him they couldn’t find his address with their system. My dad reminded ATT they had a landline through ATT for fifty years. “Sorry, different system.” Got cable internet instead.
You should request your data from CoreLogic and see if the wrong ___location is in their DB, because they’re the broker for a lot of real estate underwriting data.
I wonder if there’s a small-claims court claim here. It’s sort of annoying to have to jump through this hoop, but this is the sort of situation where you have to make it the right person’s problem to get what you want.
Your best bet would probably be to go to your state Department of Insurance. They're the ones who regulate insurance in each state, including issuing licenses and appointments, and agencies and carriers tend to take DOI complaints seriously. It wouldn't necessarily get resolved fast, but they would have the authority to do something about it, if there are any grounds for taking action.
(The federal government, for mostly historical reasons, does not generally regulate insurance except for health insurance, and that only started with Obamacare. So each state has its own DOI, and agents and carriers have to get licensed in each state. It's a dumb, byzantine system going back to Paul v. Virginia in 1869, when the Supreme Court ruled that issuing a policy of insurance is not a transaction of commerce. I don't think that reasoning applies today, but Congress has specifically exempted insurance from things like anti-trust legislation since then. Sweeping insurance under federal regulation would, in theory, cause a giant mess since there's so much law and process built around the current state-by-state system. IMO it would be worth it because the current system is completely ridiculous, but so it goes.)
I know it's not the EU, but under the GDPR you have a right to correct personal information. While you don't have a contract with them, it sounds like your information is in their database (for them to look up?). I wonder if that would be an avenue to fight this were this the EU?
In the framework of GDPR (which I know is not applicable in the US) you have the legal mandate to ask them to correct information about you.
I think that is very reasonable law: If n organisation makes decision about your relations, you should be able to force them to process correct information.
(I have used that clause ones, when a bank wrongly reported that
I had an open account of a certain type, which resultet in that I could not open that type of account at another bank.)
Does it cover information about something about you?
For example the insurance company had the correct address for the person (no need to correct) but the wrong information about the ___location of the address.
I reckon you can argue that they store and use wrong coordinates about the place you reside, which would indeed be illegal - just like it would be illegal to store a wrong address of where your reside.
I had a similar issue with my car insurance. My mother in law, who shared a first and last name with my wife, got into a car accident, on my insurance.
I worked it for a year and was unsuccessful in removing it. Ironically, my wife passed away but the accident is now associated with her car. They did figure out however, that I’m no longer eligible for a multi-driver discount.
I pointed them to my address on Google Maps which has my correct ___location, but they said their system isn't wrong and the address coordinate mapping can't be changed anyway. Go away.
Then another insurance company told me the same thing. I thought maybe I was going to be uninsurable completely based off of a computer error.
Luckily, Lemonade has smarter systems and got my ___location right, so I was able to get insured with them. But I'm not sure what I would do without lemonade.