I think my favorite "people don't recognize reality" moment is buried somewhere in one of the episode pages on here. And if I remember right, it even happened twice, with a different episode:
One was a character that came on to interrogate the main cast, who had a scar on his face. After the episode aired people complained about how fake the scar looked and that it shouldn't have moved like that when he was talking. But actually, that was a real scar the actor has gotten in, I think, Vietnam.
The other was, Centauri women shave their heads, and comments after one episode were about how fake one of the actresses' bald caps looked. If I remember right, that particular actress was going through cancer treatments and was actually bald in the episode.
I'm not sure what the scar refers to; it sounds like Col. Ari Ben Zayn in Eyes, who does have a pretty silly-looking scar. It's played by Gregory Paul Martin, who does not have a scar.
I must have gotten the two characters mixed up at some point because of their scars (and having found the entry again, I have no clue where I got "Vietnam" from): Boggs from Ceremonies of Light and Dark, played by Don Stroud.
> Don Stroud got his scar by jumping into a crowd of men with knives to stop a woman from being raped, according to former story editor Larry DiTillio.
> [..]
> Boggs' scar wouldn't have moved like it did.
> The physical dynamics of the scar would have worked as seen, actually, mainly because that wasn't a piece of makeup, that's a real scar, and it does work that way.
> The scar is real. He had some rough times a few years ago. (Actually, he also appeared with the scar as it's seen here in "TKO," as Garibaldi's corner man, though there it was hidden a bit.) He's still doing a lot of work though.
> (The funny thing was seeing the occasional comment on the nets saying how fake they thought the makeup looked, and why couldn't we manage to do something a bit more realistic looking?)
Babylon 5 remains almost unique in its particular tone of melodrama, its very theatrical acting with larger-than-life characters. I love it for that, despite one or two actors who aren't very good.
Midwinter's episode ratings are a pretty good guide to which ones are skippable, though there's only a handful of episodes that are truly disposable filler. It's a remarkable achievement for 90s TV.
One thing I think B5 still comes in very strong for is maintaining a coherent vision throughout the series. Modern TV storytelling will develop a story arc, but that arc is generally contained to a season. The characters as a whole develop in ways that matter between seasons, but I usually don't get the sense that each season is working in concert to tell a coherent and well-paced story. Some more recent series like Breaking Bad (or Better Call Saul, for that matter) have done a really good job of telling a great story that unfolds over the whole run of the show -- but I feel it remains the exception.
Yeah, it's hard for writers to do that without a big upfront commitment from the studio. Typically they only get one season assured, if that. And then if the show catches an audience, suddenly the studio flips and demands the writers string it out into extra seasons.
We all know shows that started out strong then got ruined by this stuff, like Lost or Heros. Or the internet's favorite punching bag, Game of Thrones.
I think The Wire is an interesting exception. They never got more than a single season commitment, but still managed to make something that feels cohesive over 5 seasons. They did it by using an ensemble cast where character's arcs can be extended in later seasons, but with new characters entering the mix as well. They also picked a different theme for each season, looking at the failures of american institutions from different directions, and resolving that theme within each single season. The result is each season feels distinct and can stand alone, but they also form a cohesive whole.
Conversely, I feel like Lost is massively in the opposite category. They did get their massive up-front commitment for 6 seasons while in season 2. The character and thematic arcs are probably some of the best I've seen in TV, while handling a massive ensemble cast.
The Wire was definitely a masterclass in this, as each season has dangling threads that seem so obviously picked up and driven in subsequent seasons, but nothing that's left dangling to an extent you're disappointed.
That said, it's also aided by primarily being a story about characters rather than plot.
I always thought Lost got a bad rap for that. It was actually a story about characters, but its fandom thought it was very much about plot. Hence the hate for the finale (which I thought was wonderful)
Lost SHOULD have been the opposite, but it instead just piled on new mysteries that were never answered except ‘Dallas’ Who Shot JR style- i.e. it’s just a dream (or in this case purgatory.)
I'm pretty sure it was Bobby Ewing who turned out not to be dead at the end of the season, whereas JR was really shot (just not killed). However my memories of 1980s soaps are somewhat hazy, like most people here I was more interested in things like Z80/6502 assembly code than big-haired women catfighting in ludicrous shoulder pads [0].
However, genuine thanks for the Lost finale spoiler, I never wanted to watch beyond season 2 anyway as it already became rather tedious.
Referring to the 'Who Shot JR' part was a mixup on my part- was pretty young at the time and not actively watching weekly so I forgot which was which...
- the CGI, while technically impressive, look cartoonish (even in true in its era)
Yes despite all this, it’s still amazing and, for me at least, it becomes very easy to look past those faults.
In my opinion it’s one of the best sci-fi shows ever written for its world building. You genuinely buy into the politics.
I just wish they weren’t messed around with the cancellation, then renewal of season 5 because that completely destroyed the pacing of the last two seasons.
I think CGI-wise we are just spoiled by the multi-million dollar blockbuster CGI. For the time and the media their CGI is pretty good. And yes, it's not perfect, but completely adequate to the time I think. And I don't think the aliens looked "silly" at all - I saw much worse work on many shows, I think B5 had good variety and depth without going overboard - when you shooting over a hundred episodes, making designs that would take 12 hours for an actor to get into is going to be kinda hard. And to be honest, probably won't add that much to the show beyond the initial novelty moment.
> "For the time and the media their CGI is pretty good. And yes, it's not perfect, but completely adequate to the time I think."
I watched it then, and i can tell you that NO, it wasn't pretty good for the time nor the media, it was terrible even for that time. Not because their CGI was particulary worse, but because all CGI was terrible at the time. The technology wasn't ready yet to do much, so everyone else at the time relied on practical effects, miniatures, and built full set; but for practicality and cost reasons they decided to use the crude CGI of the time for many things that were not good enouth at the time, and it shown terribly.
In subsequent seasons they walked back that decision slightly, mostly abandoning CGI for indoor scenes in favour of building sets for their actors like everyone else. And the last few seasons had fairly good CGI for external shots of the station and ships, because by that time the tech evolved to be good enouth (that is when you start seeing such CGI being used in all other shows as well).
In my opinion, the 30 year old B5 CGI is better than the most recent season of Star Trek Discovery in 2024, which I found to be quite bad, especially in the opening scene of the first episode.
Yeah I thought about Doctor Who too, and if you look on it over its history the designs there are pretty basic and yet I never felt anything was really missing there. It's not about prettiest pictures.
The CGI was done on a shoestring budget, originally on Amigas and eventually on Dec Alphas. They were using Lightwave3D, which at the time was on the edge of affordable to students or indie producers. So it was neat seeing a tv show doing something you could do yourself on your home PC with enough patience and determination.
It's a remarkable achievement but yes, it does look rather dated sadly.
My main annoyance with B5 is how the alien designs echo human historic stereotypes. A lot of sci fi falls in this trap.
The Minbari are meditative asians. The Centari are a decaying franco-romanesque empire. The Narn are primitive and violent with dark skin and exaggerated facial features. The humans are plucky American go getters. The Vorlons are the only real original alien design, but were deliberately made a blank canvas of mystery.
Mind you in no way do I think it was malicious, just a lazy writing crutch others have used. Star Trek TNG had some pretty glaring examples of the same thing in early seasons. Star Wars patterns the Jedi after Samurai.
Even if there's a universe/plot justification for why all the alien species are humanoid variations too, I think it's a lot more interesting if the writers can come up with unique histories and cultures for the aliens.
> My main annoyance with B5 is how the alien designs echo human historic stereotypes. A lot of sci fi falls in this trap.
1) The problem with TV is that you have to cough up an episode every single week on the fly. And JMS wrote a huge number of the episodes for Seasons 3 and 4 (I think all of them, but I can't find a citation).
2) Babylon 5 was specifically engineered to be TV budget friendly and was about $650K per episode. That puts significant limits on what you can do. Contrast to say Farscape at $1M or TNG at $1.5M per episode.
>1) The problem with TV is that you have to cough up an episode every single week on the fly. And JMS wrote a huge number of the episodes for Seasons 3 and 4 (I think all of them, but I can't find a citation).
IIRC, JMS says so in one of the DVD extras for Season 3 or 4 (one of the JMS commentary tracks).
To be more specific, it was done on Video Toaster. Since the Video Toaster effectively guts the Amiga's video system and substitutes it with its own its hard to even call it an Amiga anymore.
And yeah, it has numerous examples of very lazy writing: Minbari (Space Asians), Centauri (Space French), Narn (Space Palestinians) ... but the Vorlons as original? Really? They're the Space Zen Masters, spitting out zen fortune cookies to drive the plot forward.
> I think it's a lot more interesting if the writers can come up with unique histories and cultures for the aliens.
Not everyone can be Tolkien and write 5,000 years of history and a linguistic family tree, so I tend to cut writers some slack even if their fictive cultures are boring stereotypes, as long as they can create characters that aren't. For the most part I think JMS succeeded at that.
Yeah, there was a lot about B5 that was good but a friend of mine also told me it was the worst TV recommendation I ever gave them. You had to overlook a lot. In addition to some of the things you list--though I'd argue some of the acting was pretty good--the future of the show was often in doubt so at least the final season was basically vestigial.
this is one of those Good Parts of the Internet that were so much more common even ten years ago (and near-ubiquitous 25 years ago) than now, containing zero LLM slop, zero affiliate marketing, zero Medium modal login banners, no creepy ads from a trillionaire and no decaying Twitter links.
it is just a bunch of useful info condensed out of discussions about Babylon 5 on Usenet in the mid 90's, including from posts from jms, who used to hang around and mostly cryptically answer questions. it's still online, largely unchanged, 30 years later, links unbroken, no begging for money for hosting fees, no Partnership With An Exciting Brand Partner.
> How did they get there in the first place, hitchhike?
Plenty of reasons. A few crazy people live there, some running from the law or other authorities, some lose everything gambling, one has been there since the station was built and was afraid to leave. One episode centered around a teenage girl whos parents died so she resorted to stealing food.
And then there's the episode "Gray 17 Is Missing".
When I lived in Hawaii I knew a person who was a recovering drug addict with unstable housing who had gotten enough money to come to Hawaii at one point but not enough to leave. It can happen.
Nostalgia just entered the room…
These were the good old times when we had an excellent TV series (not only B5 but others like STTNG, DS9, BSG) and a cleaner/better internet with people that cared. Call me old school, bye these times are long gone and aren’t going to return.
BSG came quite a few years later (assuming you do mean the remake?).
There were other gems around that time though. I was chatting to friends about the Outer Limits just yesterday. Plus let’s not forget the other Star Trek franchise; Voyager.
I also love(d) Stargate SG1 (this was a little later too IIRC but much closer in time frame than BSG).
There were some pretty weird shows too. Some people liked Fargate. I personally couldn’t get into that particular show. But I did enjoy Lexx.
Edit: a little later (possibly around the time of BSG), but Firefly and Dollhouse shouldn’t be forgotten either.
Everyone keeps mentioning the same sci-fi shows mentioned already above, so I am just going to drop this one that I haven’t heard of before stumbling on it accidentally: Killjoys.
And for something more recent: War of the worlds (tv show from BBC+France).
I was never a big tv watcher, so maybe everyone knows.
By Fargate, did you mean Farscape? I didn't watch it until like 10 years ago and really enjoyed it even though it's the opposite of Star Trek. Babylon 5 is what I grew up on at a very young age and it really partially shaped how I see the world today in a way.
I just recently started watching it while ignoring it years ago - back then I just simply didn't like that format Farscape along with Andromeda tried to introduce. But nowadays, both shows feel unique compared to other space operas and are quite enjoyable - just like old Star Trek and B5 are.
> Call me old school, bye these times are long gone and aren’t going to return.
Sadly, it doesn't seem it's ever gonna come back indeed. Not only because the US entertainment industry (mainly) decided to embrace new values but also because media format itself changed much. While streaming platforms bring big money to the table and technology made easier and cheaper to create worlds we see on screens, the series per episode become longer but shorter as a whole. And that IMO affects the true quality of production no matter how much these gonna be sprinkled with effects, big names in cast or marketing.
The old media had these filler content that allowed audience to get accustomed with heroes, see their weaknesses and strong sides, explore their backgrounds while all what's made today bring flat stereotypical characters and worlds that personally remind me of cheap fanfiction.
This is a great example of the non commercial works of passion that were a much larger post of the internet in the 90s. Text/picture web has lost a lot of personality of that era- this world have been crowded out by wikia or similar today.
I readily admit the internet is more usable today, but in miss engaging with sites with a clear voice like this.
And yes, the first 3.5 seasons of B5 are incredible.
J M Straczynski and B Zabel in 2004 wrote "Star Trek: Re-boot the universe" proposal
> Concept
> What we propose is not Star Trek: Another Generation, or Star Trek: A New Ship, or even Star Trek: The Search for Plots. In other words, not a copy of a copy, or a distillation of a variation. We want to re-boot STAR TREK. The original. Pure and simple. The characters, universe and situations that have attracted, and continue to attract, a worldwide audience. Re-set… re-imagined… re-invigorated…
Interesting link! But rebooting TOS seems even lazier than Star Trek: A New Ship.
The universe is a big place; a decent writer can find a way to tell any story they want. (As demonstrated by the many IP-friendly reboots since 2004, when this was written.)
Yep. I remember spending hours on that site -- I watched through when the SciFi channel re-ran B5, and I always pulled the Lurker's Guide up after each episode and read through each episode's discussion in its entirety. My brother did the same thing. We'd discuss at length afterwards. Had a huge impact on us.
It's a fascinating site. Besides being a great commentary on a really good TV show, and a great example of how durable and usable 90s-era web could really be, it also encapsulates something about the position and velocity of culture at the time. The whole thing really reflects how TV shows were viewed at the time, and how the Internet was used at the time, and the hopes and ideals people had about where things would go.
Yes, exactly! I'd seen an episode of B5 here and there, but it was hard to know what was going on. My family moved states when TNT bought the show and started airing the series in order 5 days a week as Season 5 was starting to come out. I didn't know anyone yet so the highlight of my day was coming home and watching the next episode, then reading the episode guide. It made me feel like part of a community.
I had so many hours of fun playin' with Lightwave 3D on my Commodore Amiga back when this show came out. Blender's my "go-to" software for all those needs now, but man... How amazing it felt to have access to the same exact software and hardware used to produce a major TV show (and a ton of commercials and other things around that industry) back then. Good times...
Recently just read that the reason we don't have any re-masters, or new re-releases on streaming, is the original film was destroyed. Was pretty bummed. I thought it was just in some legal limbo that would be resolved eventually, not gone forever.
the original film wasn't destroyed, but all the 3D assets were lost/destroyed making a remaster impossible. they had an idea to simply re-render it all at maybe higher resolution and possibly higher resolution textures/effects but that proved impossible with the data loss.
when they recently made a new movie a few years ago they used fan models for getting a 3D B5 going.
Are the original assets that important? Presumably they are potato quality relative to modern expectations and have to be recreated anyways. So long as you did not require perfect fidelity, pixel-to-pixel rendition, but something within the spirit of the show. Rendering some space blobs seems attainable by a guy with Blender and Unreal.
Many of ships were made with curves, that can be scaled up to 8k just like a svg. Of course they'd need other improvements but it would be great to start with the originals.
Probably can be recreated but it raises the possibility of not keeping the spirit.
I'd think that they could just take all space/ship shots, and completely start from scratch and it would look good. The changes in tools from then to now, I'd think armatures on internet could look better than something from 90's.
So I'd think someone that is motivated with money, some streaming service, could re-create these.
not all of the models were destroyed, someone got a hold of some of the models and scenes and rendered them at 1080p, they were on youtube for a while at least.
There are several issues with remastering Babylon 5:
1) the variable frame rate: live action is 24p anything with CG is effectively 60p (both in a 60i container). This is difficult to do in HD.
2) a lot of the source materials for the CG are scattered to the winds, and the surviving stuff is in semi-obscure formats, that make re-rendering expensive.
A few people on youtube have posted fan restorations of the CG based on source-material that have fallen into their hands, and it looks pretty good… but I can’t see WB making the same effort to restore the CG further. Maybe as AI upscaling improves - it might look better.
3) Questions around 16:9 vs 4:3 framing.
Either way - great show - but HD doesn’t do some of the aets any favours.
the remaster uses the masters that were made. i.e. film for the non CGI aspects (which is just film so scans nicely) and composited / fully CGI printed to the film, but that was all rendered at SD TV resolutions (so is effectively upscaled).
Wow. that brings back memories. My favorite website from the early 90s. I used to rush to check it out after each new episode to see the commentary. Love that it still exists 30 years later. There's a lot to say for a simple style.
If you just started watching, I strongly recommend following the Lurker's Guide's viewing order, especially if you intend to watch the movies the Crusade spinoff:
The Lurker's Guide's order having the movie "In the Beginning" first is controversial and not something I'd personally recommend. It spoils one of the major story arcs of the first two seasons.
I just reread the summary of “In The Beginning” and you’re absolutely correct. Do not watch this pilot first!
I don’t know why the Lurker’s Guide (or JMS) recommend watching it first. I rewatched Babylon 5 recently and I’m glad I watched “In The Beginning” last.
>I just reread the summary of “In The Beginning” and you’re absolutely correct. Do not watch this pilot first!
You are absolutely correct that "In the Beginning" has all kinds of spoilers, and shouldn't be watched.
Because "In the Beginning"[0] is not a pilot. It was a TV movie made to introduce the series to TNT viewers and broadcast just before they started airing Season 5.
"The Gathering"[1] is the only Babylon 5 pilot (with "A Call to Arms"[2] as the introduction for Crusade[3], and "To Live and Die in Starlight"[4] was the pilot for the never-made "Legend of the Rangers"[5])
The main reason to watch "In the Beginning" first IMO is that Season 1 is mostly world-building that doesn't start paying off until the very last episode of Season 1 and then into Season 2. If you're showing it to someone you think may not stick through the entire first season otherwise, watching ItB first demonstrates that this story really is going somewhere interesting and worth your time.
One was a character that came on to interrogate the main cast, who had a scar on his face. After the episode aired people complained about how fake the scar looked and that it shouldn't have moved like that when he was talking. But actually, that was a real scar the actor has gotten in, I think, Vietnam.
The other was, Centauri women shave their heads, and comments after one episode were about how fake one of the actresses' bald caps looked. If I remember right, that particular actress was going through cancer treatments and was actually bald in the episode.