At least for some of us, this isn't by choice.
I have no interest in clubs, bars or drinking - in a new city. How am I to meet people?
I keep getting told go to clubs and meetups. I found one boardgame club and went to it, it wasn't for me. Now what? I can't find a club of programmers or Linux users that meet more than once in a blue moon.
If you're in Melbourne and are actually into Linux/programming I'd love to hear from you. I'm tired of being 'nerdy' meaning playing DnD or video games, I want to mix with people interested in something beyond surface level.
If you can sense a hint of frustration in my typing you'd be correct
To be fair, saying you're interested in Linux and programming is also very surface level. It's like saying you like art.
But what kind of art? There are some great slam poetry events. What about interpretive dance? What about tea ceremonies? What about abstract monotone painting done with watercolors? What about painting Warhammer miniatures?
It's a massive field. So is programming. It's possible to meet with a person who also loves programming, but if you like working on networking backends and the other person really just loves writing shaders, programming alone is hard to find a common ground. It's like a person who loves slam poetry talking about their hobby with someone who's only interested in Warhammer. When they find a common topic to talk about, it'll probably be anything but slam poetry and Warhammer. It'll be a different hobby, like surfing or making homebrew beers.
What I'm saying is, expand your interests. Try some things you've never even imagined being interested in before. You'll be surprised what you enjoy.
well obviously here I didn't go into specifics because this isn't my blog post or bio section.
I've tried board games and table tennis groups, it's at least something. I just found no interest there. I understand your point, for me it isn't easy to show up to something without a real interest or knowing someone. There's more to it than just deciding to go. I have to somehow get out of the door and show up, I'm not a very social person.
Contradictory I know. Until a year ago I was happy alone and never had a friend in teenage+ life, but finding someone I actually liked taught me people can be good.
without getting into my thoughts on this/your feelings, these types of hobby groups are closed loops and generally a sort of side quest in life.
Join a random volunteering event thru a local hospital, Veteran's affairs, shelter, hiking trails etc. You will organically meet people from outside your social strata/norms who you will organically hear from/reach out to and discover their organic hobbies/interest and gain a network.
Why volunteer? It's free, quick, rewarding, and generally weeds out weirdos.
My experience: I can name 3-4 people I know outside work that at least know Linux. Every other acquaintance I regularly associate with has been met either mountain biking or running.
I would never expect them to discuss alsa or systemd, and that is a blessing IMO. Gives me space to think about other things.
My best advice is to find some other activity that you love doing and start from there.
I've seen the LUG group in Melbourne before but I put it under the category of meeting once in a blue moon. I want to find people _now_ that I can socialise with, not hope in 3 months I find someone at an event
For me, the best way to meet people is exercise. I don't enjoy competitive sports, but there's plenty of non competitive sports and exercise out there, e.g. climbing, yoga, workout classes, hiking, cycling running, martial arts, dance etc.
You might say you have no interest in these, to which my response is: stop complaining and damn well develop an interest! Your body needs to be taken care of, and if you ignore that you might get through your 20s and 30s, but past that you're gonna start having serious health issues. So you can both improve your future and develop a social life.
Rather than just finding people in your narrow interest groups - Linux, coding, whatever - you'll meet people from all different walks of life. Some hyper focused on exercise, but mostly just normal people with a healthy outlook on taking care of their bodies.
I'm sure it's YMMV but I haven't met a friend through exercise since college. And I've done cycling classes, hikes, and some sports. Dynamic just feels so different with adults who want to be "around" people but not necessarily form new connections.
It's possible, anecdotally in Australia both myself and other family members have formed new friendships that have lasted and had breadth outside of purely physical activity from Canoe Clubs (on the Swan River), Biking (Pedal and motor), and Walking Track maintenance (local 1,000 km volunteer managed walking track).
To be clear those friendships formed more from a common interest in organising activities and club events than just the pure unadulterated physical activity part.
Yeah, I can believe you. That's a bit of the frustrating parts of forming friensdships (especially for neurodivergent individuals): there's no particular "formula" to follow. You could try to follow all steps to a T and get nothing, and instead you just trip over someone on the streets and they are your best friend for decades. The only certainty is getting outside of the house.
>To be clear those friendships formed more from a common interest in organising activities and club events than just the pure unadulterated physical activity part.
Interesting. I'm potentially intereted long term, but I simply lack the time, energy, and financial stability to really start doing that. I'll keep that in mind.
Take up an interest you can do socially and really dive deep into. For me, I easily made friendships with people after taking up viola and joining an amateur adult beginner orchestra. For you it might be rock climbing, or guitar, or maybe you could join a local crochet group if you’re into that.
I love programming too, and used to go to meetups before covid, but I think the music crowd for me has been easier to turn into a social thing.
I mean, this is like telling an obese person to just exercise and lose weight. Fact is, while it is that simple to those who are already doing it, to them, it is not that simple. The activation energy to the hobby can be immense and may require the person to change their entire lifestyle to accommodate it. For example, an obese person who suddenly exercise may come to work the next day worn out and less productive. They will also feel hungry and more irritated since they are not yet used to it and this can affect their social interactions. Eating becomes difficult and less enjoyable as they have to watch their calories intake and food type. Sleeping is harder with the hunger, etc.
I can fast almost everyday and I feel nothing even if I skip breakfast and lunch for the whole week. But I came to know many healthy people who hate to do the same to the point they can't do it even if they want to. Extrapolate, I understand what is easy and feel low effort for one person is not the same to someone else who is accustomed to the exact opposite. It takes more than just stating the obvious to help them.
But there’s really no way to get around it. Yes, you’ll have to put yourself in uncomfortable situations. There’s no one simple trick that’s going to mitigate that and trying to find a path that’ll get you there without discomfort is only delaying the inevitable.
Well we see the results of that in this article, I suppose.At some point we either accept the world is getting lonelier or adjust societal affordances to make them want to go out.
I stopped at one because I can't find anything else I'm remotely interested in. I don't particularly have interests beyond Linux and programming. I know that's limiting, but it is what it is
Shared interests are a key way to build social connections. You say you're frustrated, but then you say "it is what it is" about the most obvious way to make friends. Your frustration sounds like the result of self imposed limitations.
Here's my 2c. Pick an interest that attracts the kind of people you want to spend time with. Immerse yourself in that interest. Go meet people who share that interest. Spend time with them.
Any previous experience with that interest is not necessary - you can be honest and say you're new and learning. People tend to love sharing their interests.
Interests being what they are, one doesn't just find things interesting. If it's for the people and there's little actual interest in the activity itself, then it'll show and there will eventually be a breakdown. If lucky, one just might find a new genuine interest with people one is interested in, but that's being really lucky. Maybe a "Tinder for Interests" could work.
I respectfully disagree. Interests come from positive experiences. When people say they have no interest in - oh - Mongolian throat warbling, they generally mean they have absolutely no experience of it, and presume - based on that lack of experience - that they wouldn't find it interesting. Naturally, this is an uninformed opinion.
This is where being open minded to new interests can pay off handsomely. If your new interest comes with new friends that you greatly enjoy the company of, you will most likely develop a genuine interest over time as the natural result of those shared positive experiences.
Many of our existing interests are the echoes of positive experiences from our childhoods, and you can use the exact same mechanism to pick up new interests in adulthood.
I really don't see how interest can simply come from positive experience if there's no affinity. I've never tried Mongolian throat warbling, so I'm neither here nor there. And trying it doesn't mean I'll become interested in it even if I enjoy doing it a few times. Like I've generally had positive experience doing math (as far as I can recall), but I haven't gained any interest in it. It just isn't there. And that means I'd never join a math club, for example; I'd find it dull, even if I had friends in it. Same for a myriad of other things. It'd be pretty overwhelming mentally if one were to be interested in everything they tried and had a positive experience with IMO, which is why people specialize.
And conversely if I think hard enough, I can probably come up with something I never had early positive experience with but still pursued because I found it interesting. I'm also very interested in traveling in space, but I definitely don't have any experience, positive or negative, and likely will never gain any. I'd totally join a club that talks about traveling in space in a heartbeat though.
exactly this. interest in something can be contagious. in fact, it is the main job of teachers to get students to become interested in something. which is why i told the top commenter to keep looking. explore and try things. it also matters whether something is done alone or with others. i like solving problems for others, and i can get interested in something because others are interested in it. i like things more because they allow me to socialize.
In 2015 Melbourne there were 5 different groups meeting about Linux weekly and one group about every programming language in the top 20 of stack overflow.
The endless lockdowns destroyed pretty much all of civic society there and the place hasn't recovered, literally everyone I know from that period left after the lockdowns ended.
Well I suppose that you had something really exceptional in Melbourne, then. I've never heard of anything like that anywhere I've lived in the UK or Germany
This describes Manchester, UK pretty well as well - before the pandemic there would be some sort of tech meetup every day of the week. But now it is down to ~one a week. And many have been taken over by recruiters and marketers.
I'm pretty sure it was the same in every bigger European city. There used to be plenty of diverse tech meetups in Warsaw or Poznań, PL before the pandemic; today they're still slowly rebuilding and those that already did are usually still a shadow of their former self.
when i was visiting vienna there were 3 meetups every week. after covid! so i believe they recovered pretty well. it would be sad if they are the exception and i hope others will get back to their previous level of activity too.
If you understand that it’s limiting, then I guess you need to try to go to the Linux meetups and if that doesn’t suit you, find new ways of being happy?
You’re not giving anyone much to work with. I honestly can’t imagine only having 2 interests that are related.
That's the issue. There's very few Linux meetups and fewer still are frequent.
I had a similar issue going to 3d modeling meetups. Surprisingly few in Los Angeles. There's one blender Meetup that comes around maybe once a year and that's it.
It was bad before COVID, but Meetups completely torpedo'd during it. And it has bounced back as much as I thought.
I have an interest in systems programming. I've been on a run of enjoying esp32 iot home automation projects, I enjoy interfacing hardware with software. I enjoy restoring early hardware.
Home automation gives you a line in to hook up with tradespeople (electricians etc), building contractors, architects that design and install such systems.
There's a challenge there to socially meetup and connect to develop work, a career, or just exchange information.
Social friendships might come out of such pursuits.
(FWiW I'm in W.Australia, > 60, and had an interest in version 0.0 Linux when I was porting Minux to a transputer array and eating popcorn when Tannenbaum and Torvalds were back and forthing on UseNet)
I mean, it sounds like what really fits the bill for what you’re looking for are coworkers or collaborators more so than friends.
Which is fine, and recognizing that might help you find it. End of the day, having meaningful social connections takes actually being interested in other people, not just a shared external interest, or hobby.
Two years of lock downs killed most of civic society. It used to be that there were several interesting meetups every day. Now you'd be lucky to find one once a month.
Yup, I can confirm. The difference in meetups post and pre-pandemic is stark. Feels like a lot of society collectively realized they like being indoors and isolated and stayed that way. Can definitely say that for a few friends.
Of course, the party goes bounced right back. More introverted activities, not as much.
you say not being able to meet people is not by choice because there are so few people that have similar interests. as others have pointed out, your interests may be to limited but the point i am trying to make here is that limiting your interests is your choice.
i can feel your plight. i too struggle to connect with people if they don't share my interests. but i learned to try to approach finding friends like finding a partner. i know that it is very unlikely that i'll find a partner that shares my interests, so i have to branch out and look for other things that may be interesting too.
you already looked into video games and DnD. but keep looking.
one thing that is important is to not give up to quickly. you will not connect to everyone right away.
what was wrong with the board game club, for example? the wrong people? the wrong games? try going there a few times, see if the games and the people change. but most importantly, be patient and stick through the awkwardness of joining a group where everyone already knows each other and you are meeting them for the first time.
re video games and DnD, you may be tired of it, but if you are new to a city, it may be the way to get to know some people and learn about other activities of interest. move around, try different things. sometimes it is serendipity. i visited a friend in one city, but then i became friends with the landlord that i rented from, and a whole new world opened up that my initial friend wasn't connected to at all. keep your eyes open.
>but i learned to try to approach finding friends like finding a partner.
Swipe right on 1000 friends and hope months later someone responds back? Only to get a "hi" and then when you reply you get blocked?
It can feel that way sometimes yea.
>what was wrong with the board game club, for example?
I just don't like board games. I even was working at a startup making a custom campaign, so I had to play test plenty of that as we as compare with some other kinds of games. Boss was clearly a very passionate DM, but I just never truly "clicked" into that role playing myself.
So I've tried and just accepted board games aren't for me.
>re video games and DnD, you may be tired of it, but if you are new to a city, it may be the way to get to know some people and learn about other activities of interest.
I'm shocked how little game meetups there are in my city. Seemed like there wee a decent amount pre-pandemic, but they got utterly wiped out when the world re-opened. I only see a semi-consistent one and it's monthly.
I just don't like board games. I even was working at a startup making a custom campaign
sounds to me like you are talking about role playing, which is one kind of table top game, while board games in general are an entirely different kind of table top game. chess is a board game, risk, settlers of catan, that sort of thing. possibly even magic the gathering. basically anything that is not about role playing. a board game club would generally be about those, not about role playing.
the key point here is that while role playing may not be your thing, most board games have an entirely different dynamic, and if you haven't tried them yet, i recommend you take a look.
I don't really count as young any more but I'm in Sydney with the same view. I've tried various meetups a few times over the years and no matter how they were described all i got was cornered by sales people. I don't tend to agree with the way such groups are described.
Are there volunteer activities that you could take part in?
Are there (natural) languages you'd be interested in learning?
Are there sports that you enjoy? I know of a group in my city (Washington, DC) that meets for Saturday morning runs, and based on the couple of times I've seen them, I'd say that there is a pretty broad range of speed and endurance among them. A local running goods company has "social runs" (at what I consider more social hours) starting from its locations. I'd be surprised to hear that Melbourne does have something comparable. And there are softball leagues and kickball leagues.
thinking about this some more, i remembered one experience when i was traveling in new zealand. i looked up all the lug mailing lists in every major city and told them i was coming for a visit and that i'd like to meet some people, and even offered to give a talk about one of the things i had experience with.
the result was that in every city i went to i got a few people to hang out for an evening and in some locations i gave a talk. i remember in at least one ___location i was told that my visit motivated the online group to get together physically again, which they hadn't done for some time.
so maybe you can look for the online groups, get active in those and then offer yourself to host a meeting or two. scout locations, but keep it simple, to the extent that you are comfortable with. making a reservation at some restaurant may be all it takes to get started.
in beijing we had an active group but at one point we didn't have a suitable ___location, so we made an activity out of it. a few of the more motivated people would meet weekly in a different area of the city and actually walk the street to scout for a ___location. when we found a place we'd go in and test it, and if it was ok, we would hold the next meeting there.
the important part is that because the goal was to test locations, there was no expectations that i as a host had to find and check the ___location before hand, nor that the locations we tested would be good.
another thing was that the people who came with me to scout for locations were the ones who cared most about the group. and they were the ones who took over leading the group after i left. the group is still going. survived through covid.
in other words, if there is no offline meeting yet (or not anymore), maybe you can try starting one.
this only works if you actually end up enjoying the activity, but everything from arts classes to beginners rock climbing clubs or a running club can work.
For me I joined a silly learn-self-defence club when I first moved to the big city and I can't now remember any moves but I have fond memories of some of the people.
There are no promises of budding or lasting friendships forming, but its always worth a shot and you might actually find something that sticks.
I found a local makerspace. The makerspace has a weekly "build day" which attracts a lot of varied folks doing fun projects, including a lot of software-heavy things.
I also found some hiking and cycling groups. Lots of time to socialize while you're walking or cycling.
Yeah, it's tough meeting people in general these days. Meetups are nice but no one addresses that they tend to be monthly more often or not. How easy is it for you to form meaningful connections with monthly appearances?
If you're young enough to pull it off (20's) I'd recommend local college clubs. Your audience will be a bit (or much) younger, but you will meet likeminded people to talk with. including whatever professor is hosting and supervising the group. They usually aren't too fussed about you being a non-student as long as you're participating in the activities.
Anecdotal, but speaking as a nearly 72 year old, I spend almost all of my time alone, except for my (fairly crap) carers, and my (very nice) cleaning lady/cook, and her little doggie. But I do feel a bit lonely, but I think I always have.
I'm a bit behind you in years, but/and am very comfortable doing things by myself or in small groups; I would say I even prefer being alone most of the time. As a manager in tech, there's plenty of human interaction at work!
I have been looking ahead and wondering about this however. Thx for sharing.
Online platforms are not a substitute for real, in-person friendships. I forget the researcher who coined the term AI for "artificial intimacy": when you've got 1000 "friends" on social media but nobody to feed your cat when you go on vacation.
Can only speak for myself but I have several groups of people I've met online 10 or 20+ years ago, chat with online ranging from daily to weekly, and about half of them I meet in person once to several times per year. No clue if it's objectively a healthy relationship, but I'd say so. Obviously I'm not young anymore, and it should not matter I'm not in the US - but I don't see a meaningful difference here, because whether you can form these types of relationships today is a different question.
I really hate this style of headline (which is not from the original article apparently). It should go in the garbage bin along with "fastest growing" and others. By itself it doesn't tell you any meaningful information. Maybe "young men" are spending just a few percent more of their time alone than the next group. Maybe that other group started spending less time alone. The actual "problem" is that time spent alone has drastically increased, not that they surpassed some other group, and that's what the headline should say.
I don’t know if the HN Title has been altered since you posted this, but the verbatim wording “Young men now spend more of their free time alone than any other group” is in the screenshot of the chart taken directly from the original FT article, so that part stands despite your own hatred of such a choice of words.
Whether that claim is (a) true and (b) significant, that’s a different question. However it seems that you and I are living in different bubbles because when your gut reaction is to feel the headline claim is false and/or meaningless, my immediate reaction is that it corresponds with ideas I’ve frequently encountered recently, that young men are finding it increasingly hard to form meaningful friendships and that some of the outcomes from that are an increased rate of depression, suicidal tendencies, violence towards each other and towards women, and a greater likelihood of being radicalised by extremist political groups of any flavour.
I don’t know whether my worldview or yours is more correct, the truth is perhaps somewhere in the middle, all I know is that if there is a possibility that any of this is both true and significant then it takes calm and nuanced discussion backed up by well researched facts and a willingness to try potential interventions as a society - unless of course research and not just gut instinct tells us: no, this really isn’t a problem, we do live in a fair and just society and nobody is suffering.
> young men are finding it increasingly hard to form meaningful friendships and that some of the outcomes from that are an increased rate of depression, suicidal tendencies, violence towards each other and towards women,
Isn't violence towards women by the target demographic (Young American Men) the lowest it has ever been in human history?
I don’t know, perhaps it is. If you have some data to back that up (or even a report from consumer media that dares to name its sources) then please do link it. My point above was that it’s easy to respond to such stuff with a gut reaction instead of pursuing research (which includes questioning the source, methodology and bias where appropriate). I’m currently too busy with my day job to go and research this in depth but hopefully the HN hive mind will produce a bunch of evidence by the end of the day…
Definitely didn't mean to deny the problem. In fact, I agree with the article in it's entirety. My criticism was purely technical and applies only to the headline on HN. I've seen this trick used too many times to push various worldviews and I've started to look out for such statistical lies in media.
I agree 100%: sensationalism helps nobody except extremist politicians, the media/tech channels that monetise engagement and anyone else who stands to profit from outrage and division in society.
>(young) men shouldn’t be cared about, and aren’t socially beneficial to discuss?
They already aren't in any other issue discussion (violence, suicide, homelessness, jobless, legal, sickness, education) so at least it would be consistent.
I won't interpret this as a battle of the sexes. Instead, I'll argue that we simply have it "too good" and now eschew other effortful forms of entertainment, companionship, and adventure.
Phones provide all the dopamine we need, perfectly fit for our attention and interests. Always on, never-ending streams of it. Everything else in life just doesn't provide the same immediate hit. It takes too much effort to hang out with friends, go to the community theater, or go out on a date.
The internet and its algorithms are turning us into zombies.
Yes, even the good ones, even your David Lynch or your copy of Critique of Pure Reason
It isn't, as some people imagine, pure dopamine machines shovelling out easy to consume content, but even also access to (made possible by both far increased literacy and far increase education) works that entertain us that are imagined as higher. We simply can't get bored
I never interpreted it as such. Simply that cultural and biological factors will affect the sexes differently. This impacts men more because they simply don't tend to have as many deep friendships, nor do they talk as frequently.
But yes I agree. We are victims of convinience. a soft form of the classic VR immersion dystopia. All the joy in our fingertips, so who needs friends?
People have been talking about this issue for a long time now.
We know it's an important problem and it's not the first time community has sort of collapsed, but it takes time for society to adjust back to a balance. Whether we force a fix or not, after the older generations pass away there will be more opportunity and sense of purpose/meaning in reaching out.
When stability and satisfaction is relatively achievable without others, the required motivational threshold for putting in the effort to make connections gets higher. This compounds when some businesses, events and organizations that rely on strong socializing tendencies to succeed start to decline. Then those have to be rebuilt once people realize the problem.
The worry is that the internet and online socializing could keep us in a groove that limits the effectiveness of any corrective measures, reducing the ROI on initiatives to solve it.
> When stability and satisfaction is relatively achievable without others, the required motivational threshold for putting in the effort to make connections gets higher.
Maybe it's something simple, like: the mind craves words - and expressions made thereof - and social media gives just enough of a fix that the restless mind is not driven to seek out conversations & encounters in the flesh. Shyness becomes self-reinforcing. Awkward wins.
I don't necessarily think it's simple from that angle. It's more like convenience and efficiency often come with encapsulation and reduced friction, which puts us in bubbles that cause us to slip right past eachother. That alone causes so many things to snap into place in the direction of training us to enjoy self-time until it reaches unhealthy saturation.
That may be the unique issue. Maybe a good portion of people never realize the problem and sustain on artificial intimacy. The internet is really good at giving people the facade of such interactions.
I am not convinced that it's unhealthy. Young people, especially males, can easily emulate a ton of bad behavior while offline, much of which is now avoided. At this time of the year, the viruses can be unforgiving too.
I think we have enough "personalities" online to easily dispel the idea that young people can't emulate bad behaviors online. Politics aside, a decade ago they were literally eating bleach en masses.
24M, don't want kids. not going to marry (if no kids, why fuck yourself?). sex is fun but not fun enough to make me consider any of the previous things
A bunch of our social activities center around families or dating (and dating culture is just a precursor for marriage for most people)
I'm genuinely convinced (as a young man) that the reason why people are "upset" about us being alone is because they'd rather screw us into arrangements that benefit them. It's just manipulation disguised as concern
As someone who is entering the age where I should be spending as little time as possible in my life alone (presumably because I’d be married with kids) I’m looking at a very lonely life in the traditional sense. I’m single with no indicator of that changing.
I have a decent amount of friends and see people regularly at my gym since I workout everyday. So, there’s always some minor socialization on any given day. My big woe though is that there’s no easy way for me to meet women. All the things I do normally are just not popular with women and most men are terrible for introducing you to women. After all, any guy who knows a woman who is eligible and attractive will burn the bridge himself unless he’s not single but even then - usually is not encouraged to know such women due to his partner. Even when I try to branch out and do things that are more popular with women, it’s a very challenging environment to get anywhere socially. Yoga and Pilates classes aren’t known for their social atmosphere and if you join in on a cardio dance class - your sexuality and masculinity will inherently be questioned.
Seems most people 25+ rely on dating apps to meet opposite sex now and I’m sure that contributed a lot to the loneliness figures. A lot of us have little reason to go out if we don’t think there’s at least a chance at romance - and the amount of good spaces to meet partners has dwindled.
What about hobbies that are more unisex? A lot of women hike, maybe find a hiking or bike riding group. Something with art, books, whatever. Branch out into other things, find something you can genuinely enjoy. Don't go into it with the mindset you're gonna date, just have fun and get to know people. If something is going to happen, let it naturally happen.
> Yoga and Pilates classes aren’t known for their social atmosphere and if you join in on a cardio dance class - your sexuality and masculinity will inherently be questioned.
If you're really interested in joining those, just do it. Who cares what people think? If someone thinks less of you because your hobby isn't manly, that's their problem.
Statistics matter in these. If there is even a slight gender imbalance in the singles - it creates a very challenging environment.
I’ve investigated groups for hiking and cycling - here in nyc I can say they don’t exist in good numbers (especially in winter) and don’t attract eligible women.
If you go out and do things without the mindset to date as a man - you won’t get dates. Men have to initiate conversation, men have to ask for contact details, men have to organize and plan dates, etc. Women don’t do any of the initial courting. Just going out and being in a space is not going to get you laid as an average man.
This is why people use dating apps so much now. To get a date in real life is exceptionally challenging. You have to first figure out where single women are evening going out (they don’t - single men dominate almost every social activity) and then you gotta court a bunch of random women who you know nothing about in hopes they’ll be a fit. 9/10 times you’ll find out you have completely different life goals within the first 30 minutes.
I think this is why dating apps are so popular. I wish they worked for me but I’m ugly - so I have to stick with real life and hope I meet women with vision problems.
Don't go into it looking for a date, make friends with them, single or not. Do things as friends outside the hobby if it goes there, not necessarily as a date, but just to hang.
Maybe you'll grow it into something more, maybe they'll have a cute friend they can set you up with. I started out with my girlfriend as a friendship and we both caught feelings. I frequented her work and we had fun talking, and she gave me a reason to get her number after a while. 3 months later we were dating.
I’m just gonna let you know that most Americans actually hate this. Most women don’t like men sitting in the wait and hoping the woman will catch feelings back. They want someone who is forward with their intentions from the get go.
It’s a different culture today than what you’re describing. The amount of people I know who started as “friends first” is incredibly small. I’ve met more billionaires than I have met people with that story.
Women are also incredibly bad at setting people up. I’ve known hundreds of women and never had them set me up. The only people who ever did me a solid in that way were gay men. As straight men burn their bridges with every woman that is remotely attractive.
Also, keep in mind that women [at least say they] don't want to be approached while they're out doing hobbies like hiking, bike riding, visiting museums and art exhibits, or when they're grocery shopping or running errands, or at the park with their kids, or... really anywhere, it seems. So, "just go out and court" is not really 2025-realistic advice.
I'm so thankful I'm long-since married and out of this rat race. A few of my male friends my age are post-divorce and they all say the same thing about the dating world today: It's horrible and pretty much impossible for guys. Their ex-wives are having the times of their lives, though! Good luck to you, my dude.
Here in NYC, I will say that trend is reversing at least on the ground. Many women I've talked to in real life are much more open to it now and realize that what many women had said over the last decade was a big mistake. It was a pendulum swing that went way too far after the MeToo movement.
That said, it's even more looks based than it was before. We didn't have swiping apps 15 years ago and it's all people have gotten accustomed to now. The fact that "looksmaxxing" is a mainstream term now is very scary and speaks to how superficial everyone has become in this age. The idea of even giving someone who you don't find very physically attractive from the get go is practically dead.
My point being that women are more open to be approached in various situations but you face an even greater uphill battle now than before because the women are much more superficial and won't receive you positively unless you are a real beauty. It's a grim market. This won't be changing anytime soon either. Part of me believes people are all like this because there's literally no reason to be with someone because even most people can't afford a home or family even with two incomes now.
Yeah, I looked into it. Part of the deal with professional matchmakers is that they're very selective with their male clients. One said they wouldn't take on a client if they didn't believe they had over 80% chance of matching them.
So, typically, for these matchmakers - they are taking on men who are executives and above average physically. They won't take on your typical engineer who got 7-8 figures out of an IPO because those men are low status and generally unattractive. The men must also have relatively modest bar. They cannot expect perfection. Matchmakers for men are mostly about freeing up the mans time and not about doing something he could never do. For these men, spending hours on dating apps, tuning profiles, messaging random women, etc. is a huge time/money sink. They'd rather pay someone what feels like a drop in the bucket at $50k ("It's one banana, Michael. How much could it cost, $10?") and have them set up the dates.
I've yet to meet a matchmaker that would take me on because they know I'm too challenging of a case. The man needs to be high status, physically attractive, and have reasonable standards (which might still be outlandishly high for the general population but these are typically top 0.1% men). I'm neither high status nor physically attractive. I can't even get matches on any dating app and that's not usually the case for these men. They have too many and don't know what to do and need someone to filter it down for them.
>They won't take on your typical engineer who got 7-8 figures out of an IPO because those men are low status and generally unattractive
low status? I'm not gay but I'd date you. Stability is way sexier than some sort of "I can fix him" broken/badass persona that people are stereotypically magnatized towards.
But yeah I apologize. I'm the same place without the IPO. All I can say is to just spend some time "fixing you". hire a private nutritionist and maybe trainer and just... ugh "looksmaxx", as the kids are saying.
Even if it somehow doesn't work, you'll feel a lot better about yourself.
I’ve done all that. It’s insufficient. I’m getting surgery in LA next month to help push it forward more. My surgeon said I’m one of his oldest clients for what I’m getting done. Most people at my age aren’t getting surgeries like this because it’s kinda considered “too late”. But here I am, in my mid-30s trying to stay competitive.
How much do you expect a surgery to increase your odds of finding the partner you're looking for? Genuinely curious since it sounds such an incredible situation assuming that we are not talking about really serious surgery like trying to mitigate disfigurement or similar.
It's all very minor stuff. I've had surgery before and it was a very minor improvement. In most aspects, I look like a "healthy" adult male. The problem is that my facial attractiveness is subpar and most women I run into in places like NYC and SF have a bar that is hard to pass. Most of the women you encounter that are in relationships are not a respective audience of what you will find out in the singles market. Women who are single at 30+ in NYC/SF are a very different crowd than the ones who married their college boyfriend. Part of the reason these women are single is because of their high demands.
My hope is that one day I will be able to pass the looks threshold and be able to get matches on things like dating apps. I'm doubtful that I ever will and so that's why I am super consistent about going out and doing stuff but the brainrot from being online all the time has infected most women I run into. Most of the women I'd be compatible with just don't go out to many events where single men are.
What’s your take on finding a partner from abroad? I understand it sounds incredibly cringy and fake, but I have a couple of friends that would easily fall into the bucket of “very subpar facial+body attractiveness”, and went through their 20s without a single date. One found a wife in Eastern Europe, and one in South East Asia.
There are a million reasons to think how bad of an idea that would be (I thought the same for a while), but after many years they are still in very happy marriages, with attractive and loving wives that do genuinely seem to care about them after all these years.
there are also professional women in those countries. but it is still an important point to consider because they may not be able to work in your country after moving, unless you move to theirs, which is what i did. my wife was always earning more than me.
Sorry to hear that. I don't know your exact situation, but if you have to resort to surgery it's clearly not just "calories in calories out and "buy yourself soke decent clothes".
Yeah. I think you'll find my story is going to be more and more common in the next few years. Currently, cosmetic surgery for men is heavily scrutinized but I think in the next few years it will become more like Korea. Hair transplants have already become mainstream and considered normal. It's inevitable that men will spend more time flying to other countries to get more work done. The costs in the US are obscene and way out of reach for your average male but are very reasonable in places like Turkey or Mexico.
I remember in 2000-2006 spending a ton of my time with friends at a lanshop, because our computers were terrible.
It would have counted as in person time, but once we got better computers and internet we just started hanging out online with webcams and voice chat instead.
Nothing much changed apart from spending a lot less money and going to bed at a more reasonable time - the 24 hour discount was probably not the best for our sleep schedules.
The fact that both young men and young women are now spending so much time alone (that huge spike starting around 2010) is more worrisome to me. I'm concerned about the long-term effects on our society.
I mean, remote work gets pulled because old dudes in power say so. The four day work week gets laughed at because of America’s unhealthy focus on work ethic and worship. The Surgeon General prescribes community. We know what the problems are, but as a collective action problem, we’re going to fail the test. There is no incentive for those who can make change to make change. Social volatility will rise, fertility rates will fall faster, everyone will be less happy. Brighten the lives of those around you until your light goes out, that’s all you can do.
> remote work gets pulled because old dudes in power say so. The four day work week gets laughed at because of America’s unhealthy focus on work ethic and worship
I think these two are very similar.
Although yes, many people are hours and worry that salaries won't adjust for 32 hours. Which would ruin the point of a 4 day workweek without adjusting compensaation to be the same as 40 hours. that's there the dudes in power also say so.
I dunno about fortnite and Roblox - my knowledge of my family's teenagers says that all of them play fortnite, most of them used roblox in the past, but none of them get caught up in the equivalent of "doomscrolling" that the other platforms[1] in that list have.
I'm not convinced that they are as addictive as the rest of the items on that list.
[1] Excepting HN; you can't doomscroll on this site.
> I'm not convinced that they are as addictive as the rest of the items on that list
Even if AAA video games like Fortnite can be addictive, you are limited in when you can realistically engage in them (at a computer, focused). Whereas social media can be ever present. This is why I don't mind buying my kids an xBox that's in the living room whereas I'm very concerned about a phone in their pocket.
Social media as digital dopamine is certainly a component (and hard to argue against sometimes, “Hell is Other People” and all that), but not the only component.
If people are happy in this scenario, who am I to tell them they’re not. Are they happy? If not, what is the reality expectations gap?
You assume people are happy, you should not by default assume anything. Looking at the trend it is shifting age groups over time which is usually an economic indicator but might very well be a complex correlation of factors.
I know a couple people that are deeply unhappy with their lives, but they are happily using some of the mentioned games and media to distract themselves from that fact all day. Then they go to bed and can't sleep, because they are no longer distracted from it.
They're very happy to have those distractions, though. Is that good for long term happiness? Probably not.
>Far from being a US-specific trend, this is sweeping the western world. The share of young people on either side of the Atlantic who regularly meet up socially with friends, family or colleagues has dropped sharply. In Europe, the share who don’t even socialise once a week has risen from one in ten to one in four.
I am not convinced that the opening line is a significant factor in the report.
It will be very surprising if "wellbeing for all" will be achievable in my lifetime or even my non existent great grandchildrens lifetime.
It is human, not patriarchal which forces one group against another, you need only research with an open mind to see this happening in even the most liberal minded of groups.
If you're in Melbourne and are actually into Linux/programming I'd love to hear from you. I'm tired of being 'nerdy' meaning playing DnD or video games, I want to mix with people interested in something beyond surface level.
If you can sense a hint of frustration in my typing you'd be correct