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European Democracies should start a, new, NATO-like military Alliance on their own, but without Trump's America. (and without the notorious US-made military equipment kill-switches)

And while we're at it, this time will be different: Instead of the membership criteria being anti-soviet communism, as in NATO, it should be effective Liberal Democracy - and - Freedom from Exceptionalist Exemptions, namely from the International Rule of Law. So, to be part,

1. Compulsory International Criminal Court membership and compliance - hence no exceptionalistic US, and no exceptionalistic Israel.

2. No "Illiberal Democracies": say, for example, composite of a minimum 0.67 score on the WJP Rule of Law Index and others: therefore no Orbanic Hungary, and no illiberal others like it. Poland, Slovakia, Italy: time to make some hard choices if you want in.

3. Democratic backsliding removes you rights in the Alliance, and, can proportionally lead to outright expulsion.

Not one more new military equipment purchase from the US, (and dispreference for other non-qualifying nations procurement). Member nations should use their - substantial - industrial capacity to equip themselves with indigenous military materiel.

Hey, it would be actually great for the economy!

Initially European scope, but bridges to a broader global scope (or even a secondary sister-Alliance) with open-ended partnerships with Canada, Australia, New Zeland, Japan, South Korea, and yes: Taiwan.

US and/or Israel want to join, if a more Democratic future selves? Simple: fully join the ICC, and meet the Alliance's full criteria as every other member.

Same applies for prospective new members.

Sweden shows how principled positions can be maintained while building serious defense capabilities. Now multiply that model by Europe's combined industrial and technological base.

We just need the political will to execute - instead of just rolling over and wagging our tail to bullies.




Why a separate alliance? In 2015, only 5 nations meet the 2% funding requirement for NATO, with all previous US administrations asking for increases. That's concrete evidence of disinterest in the concept or intentional reliance on the US. Only recently, with threats of the US pulling out of NATO, have the numbers improved.

If the US scaled back the 2%, and was less involved, I would think Europe would be in a better position than a brand new alliance.


I understand your point about NATO's historical funding issues, but this isn't just about money - it's about aligning with shared democratic values and international accountability.

The 2% GDP threshold has indeed been a persistent issue, but European nations have substantially increased defense spending since 2022. The proposed alliance would be fundamentally different from NATO in two key ways:

1. It would prioritize democratic values and rule of law accountability (ICC membership) over simply being anti-Russia

2. It would develop true strategic autonomy through indigenous defense production

NATO remains structurally dominated by US interests and equipment with their potential "kill switches." Recent events demonstrate why European security can't be outsourced to powers with potentially divergent interests.

The existing industrial and technological capabilities across Europe are more than sufficient to create a credible deterrent force when properly coordinated. This isn't about creating something from scratch, but realigning existing resources toward greater sovereignty.

Democracy and rule of law aren't just ideals - they're strategic assets worth defending with our own means.


I appreciate the explanation. That sounds incredibly reasonable (from my naive perspective).


Why a separate alliance?

Because Trump is clearly compromised by Putin.

Which also means we cannot fully rely on NATO secret keys / protocols.

A new Alliance has to be made from scratch.


Ah... the league of 'liberal democracies' where blasphemy is still a prosecuted crime. So very liberal.

It's also insane that you place Japan in the realm of this alliance while Hungary is kicked out. Japan is significantly more ethno-nationalist than Hungary ever could be.


Also, why do you feel threatened by like-minded countries taking care of their own security?

The right way for you is only if they are bullied without complaint?

Perhaps you'd prefer an alliance where authoritarian tendencies are celebrated rather than scrutinized?

Or maybe you just find democracies protecting themselves too... inconvenient?


You are confusing bemusement for being threatened.


Interesting how you overlook Japan's strong judicial independence, press freedom, and regular peaceful transitions of power to focus on ethno-nationalism.

Meanwhile, Hungary systematically dismantles judicial independence, crushes media freedom, and rewrites electoral rules to entrench single-party rule - but sure, they're the real liberals here.

The proposed alliance isn't claiming perfect members - it's establishing clear, measurable standards through indices *like* WJP Rule of Law. If Japan doesn't meet the 0.67 threshold, they're out too. That's the whole point: consistent standards applied equally, not convenient exceptions.

But please, continue defending Orbán's "illiberal democracy" while nitpicking flaws in actual functioning democracies. That's definitely a coherent position.


In these 'democracies' you can be jailed for online comments lol.


Exactly - in Hungary and Russia!


In the same league as the UK and Germany. This is why I don't support unfettered American alignment with these countries. There is no major country as liberal as the United States.


…Russia is in the same democratic league as Germany and the UK? :D

I mean, how bad faith can you be?

UK and Germany prosecute hate speech with due process. Russia and Hungary jail critics of the government.

If you can't tell the difference, you're not actually interested in freedom.

Strange how your concern for free speech only applies to democracies, never to the dictatorships silencing journalists permanently.

Did YOU say something you shouldn’t have to get the weekend shift at the troll farm?


You've been breaking the site guidelines badly in this thread, such as here and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43221725. That's not ok, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

Note these in particular:

"Eschew flamebait."

"Assume good faith."

"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email [email protected] and we'll look at the data."


Will do.


You're missing that many European nations are having their own problems with the rise of ultra-right nationalism.

We're in the verge of those countries being Trumped as well.


Illiberal nations don’t need to join - in fact, they wouldn’t even be eligible.

It is an Alliance of the Willing.


I understand. I'm saying that that alliance is in real danger of shrinking before it even gets started, and at any point thereafter.

Seven countries now have far right parties in government, including Italy, France, and Germany. If they go the way of the U.S., any liberal alliance will be greatly diminished.


Then the remaining Democracies better take action sooner than later, no?


Genuinely confused:

Why the downvotes?

In 2025, Trump dumped Ukraine, sided with Putin and made a number of bully threats (including invasion) to its formal National Security partners. Security which - at least still today - is bound by literal treaty.

Should Europe just roll over and wag its tail?

What kind of partnership is this that one side wants to boss around its only-good-if-wimp partner?


[flagged]


Democracy isn't binary and doesn't start and end with elections. It is not democratic, for instance, for a president to subvert the powers of Congress (whose members also won their elections).


Both the US and Israel don’t recognize the International Criminal Court, in contrast to the overwhelming majority of democracies worldwide.

I’m not saying they’re not democracies, just that they would be *more democratic* if they would fully comply with the ICC.

This Alliance has standards and actually would stand for concrete values, rather than just strategic convenience.




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