I don’t think your point of view is unreasonable, but I would also like to see folks like you admit that the episode was poorly handled (and that similar mishandling is happening all over) and embarrassing. I notice you didn’t answer all my questions and that seems evasive.
Zelensky was disrespectful in many ways. He’s only still in this fight because of the US. He knew damn well why he was flown to Washington this time. Trump wants the ceasefire. He should be thankful for what he’s getting instead of confrontational. He is owed absolutely nothing.
> When considering your answer, if you had children, would you be proud of them if they behaved this way?
If they were genuinely wanting peace, yes.
If it was theatrics with bad intent, no.
Exactly how? Did he spit in Trump’s face? Call his wife a strumpet? Or what?
The mere act of asking for help isn’t disrespectful. If your kids came to you and asked you for help, even though they knew you were disinclined, would that alone be “disrespectful”?
> He’s only still in this fight because of the US. He knew damn well why he was flown to Washington this time. Trump wants the ceasefire. He should be thankful for what he’s getting instead of confrontational. He is owed absolutely nothing.
The USA’s attitude has never to date been “we don’t consider favors to others because we owe them nothing; people to whom we don’t owe anything should kiss our ass.” Sure, nobody owes us anything in the way of foreign relations. We do things because it advances our interests. Trump, like you, clearly believes helping Ukraine doesn’t advance our interests. We may disagree on that, but our President certainly shouldn’t be a jerk when communicating that and constantly interrupt our guest while they’re trying to communicate. That’s disrespectful.
> If they were genuinely wanting peace, yes. If it was theatrics with bad intent, no.
I was talking about Trump’s and Vance’s behavior, not Zelensky’s.
> The mere act of asking for help isn’t disrespectful.
I agree but that’s not what happened. Watch the whole event, if you haven’t. Because snippets don’t do justice. And I’m not going to rewatch it just to reply to you. But you’re really misrepresenting what went down. It’s fine if we disagree over what is disrespectful. But I think you can at least admit, if you watch the whole thing, how his behavior can be interpreted that way even if you personally don’t think it merited the response it got.
I want to circle back to the beginning of this conversation, in which you claimed that HNers are all of one mind and that we'll downvote a contrary opinion because we're all just reflexively anti-Trump.
This sort of reply is why you're getting downvoted: Making an argument based on emotion and characterization of others without evidence.
Persuasion is the burden of the claimant. If you believe Zelensky was being disrespectful and merited the President's and VP's response, that is your case to make, clearly, logically, and with reference to the source material. That's Debate 101. It's not your opponents' duty to prove a negative.
I believe that you and folks like you don't want war, and that's in good faith. I don't think anyone really wants war. I think the question comes down to what we're willing to sacrifice to avoid it. This is a totally reasonable argument to have, but we don't have to publicly demean and dress down other heads of state, especially those who are our guests, in the process.
