OTOH we’re educating engineers and then not letting them stay. Like chinas worried about having talent poached (or controlled in some way) and here’s Australia providing
world class education and demanding they go back afterwards.
in sydney, you face property prices not cheaper than the bay area, but the same tech job is going to pay you 30-40% of what you'd expect on the other side of the world.
As a scientist I'm not going to handicap my career by going to Australia or EU when the US is doing science light years ahead of those countries.
I've worked in Australia, Europe and Canada, and the ecosystem of scientists, funding and support for develop of science into products is far much further ahead in the US it's not even funny.
What’s your take on near-term stability for American immigrants in Europe? I was looking at options for moving last year but the work visa situation seemed fairly precarious (although that’s a relative thing in comparison with what may end up happening here in the US).
As someone who has been looking; the EU Blue Card through Germany seems pretty stable and straightforward, with a 21/27 month path to permanent residency, depending on language ability:
The politics there are a little concerning at the moment but should be stable for at least 4 years. With residency, the rest of the EU becomes a lot easier if things change.
I want to be vocal about it for third world country people like me.
If you own a home in your own country, please stay there. From my experience with EU it is not worth it. On the surface it looks crazy good. But west has their own share of problems.
The cultural mix is difficult, second class citizen is always going to be a thing. There won't be racism or anything like that. It just the aura of people change when they speak with natives vs non-natives.
Ask this important question before moving to EU: is it worth trading your family, culture, connection, and your ability to communicate for a foreign land where you are going to be second class citizen, your struggle will only give a glimmer of hope for your children?
Left EU for my home. Never returning there. The promise of paradise isn't appealing at all.
Thank you for the link. How is Germany looking RE economic stability for the next couple of years? I was looking into Sweden but even the Swedish citizens I know there are having a difficult time finding / keeping engineering jobs as the economy has been doing poorly.
My impression is there's some weakness from the auto industry struggling which is flooding the job market; but there's a lot of upside. They're investing big in a lot of new industries that don't even really exist in the US (energy related).
Rheinmetall and the rest of the defense industry seems like its set to really take off over the next few years, which even if you aren't eligible for (citizenship requirements), it'll lead to other industries needing labor though.
I'm not from there and don't follow it super closely so am not an expert, but that's kindof been my read on it.
For what its worth, this started because I struggle to find 2-3 jobs in the US per week worth applying for in my field. I can find 8-10 a day over there without much trouble (had several interviews, 2 final rounds, 1 "you weren't a fit for this role, but we really want to talk to you again in May").
> How is Germany looking RE economic stability for the next couple of years?
Not great. Its economic growth has stalled. European Commission forecasts GDP growth of 0.7 percent in 2025, the slowest in the EU. Since 2017, the German economy has grown by 1.6 percent, while the EU average has been 9.5 percent.
Personally I’m pushing my (Belgian) government hard to provide a streamlined path for American immigrants, especially tech workers.
In general, it’s easy, just highly bureaucratic. If you compare to what most other countries have to go through, getting a work visa as a skilled us citizen is quick.
As one of the many Americans who wants to contribute to a society whose values match their own, thank you. Is there somewhere to follow your efforts in that front?
A lot of it is small-scale lobbying, so not much to follow :)
If you want to support some of the efforts I'm pushing hard for, check out EU Inc: https://www.eu-inc.org/
Many entrepreneurs here know what the advantages are in the US compared to EU when it comes to startups etc and understand what needs to change. There's real willingness to get it done and the trump election has been fast-forwarding through so many of the steps, giving the EU the kick it needed to wake up.
All the momentum is there, now. I'm feeling super optimistic about Europe. But the recession will be hard to weather.
I would have loved to come work for imec but the only immediate internship budget they had was a studentship with accompanying stipend and visa. They told me it would have taken too long to sort out the employee route.
One doesn't preclude the other, but I have serious doubts about free speech concerns. There are moderate and extreme movements in Europe. They all express themselves freely within the law.
Of course, we’re probably seeing the normal amount of movement when administrations shift. I work for a global company and have only witnessed the EU to US movement. I’m sure both are happening.
What's normal? You just offended a whole group of people and probably had no intention of doing it. You're proving the point on why the whole thing doesn't work. You should get your comment removed if you seriously believe this to be true and want to avoid being hypocritical.
I'm sorry if you feel offended. My comments will be removed by HN moderators if they think it's necessary. You can flag and downvote them meanwhile. You can also contact the moderators or your local police if you think it is necessary.
EDIT: It might not be possible to flag or downvote comments. So, I recommend you to contact the moderators or your local police. You can find my name and address on my GitHub profile.
I have no interest in pressing charges against you or getting you in trouble. That would be hypocritical of me and contrary to my beliefs. I was simply pointing out how easy it is to offend people on the internet and why it simply doesn't work at scale. If no one has the right to say something potentially offensive on the internet, then the whole thing needs to be shut down.
Thank you for explaining your point of view on the interest of this conversation. Here's mine, I consider an offense to be something quite subjective sometimes. In some cases, it's possible to offend someone without meaning to. The solution to this problem is to apologize and offer to talk about it. If that doesn't work, and the offense is in some way "forbidden", then the offended person can simply defend themselves by going to the “authorities”.
I sincerely apologize if you found my response offensive. It was not my intention and I try to respect the moderation rules on HN. I just wanted to give my point of view, as a person living in the EU.
Anyway I’m sure people can be in whatever bubble their algorithmic news gives them. At the end of the day, today, it’s shameful to be American and many of my American friends feel that shame right now. The same cannot be said for most European countries.
> Anyway I’m sure people can be in whatever bubble their algorithmic news gives them
> it’s shameful to be American and many of my American friends feel that shame right now. The same cannot be said for most European countries.
So you're proposing you are immune to a bubble? One of the people I referenced was _literally_ ashamed of the German government. It's happening on both sides.
I find the whole thing odd, to be honest. I had a ton of disagreements with the prior administration, and I think the way many things were handled was "shameful." However, I never once felt "ashamed" of being American. Administrations come and go. The will of the people is fickle and changes like the wind.
How about I see an interesting street hustler in Munich and put a photo of him on my blog? If something like that is illegal I'd quickly find our two cultures are absolutely incompatible with my continued residence.
Cool so now free speech is reduced to anything not viewed as harassment. I think I will take your advice, that's dystopic and far worse than just your prior bullet points.
You can also just ask him if it's OK to do that and they're probably going to be OK with it.
And otherwise you simply ensure that you have more than IIRC 5? people in the photo because taking and publishing a photo of a group of people is not illegal.
Privacy and not being harassed and free speech are of course exactly where the rubber meets the road. There is an intersection and naturally people will have differing opinions as to where the line should be drawn. One can always come up with examples where favoring free speech will lead to really bad outcomes for someone and vice versa.
Uh, it's reduced to things that are not harassment. Who said "viewed as"? Are you trying to make everything subjective, so you can argue all opinions about harassment are equally valid?
This is like saying the US's gun law is "reduced" to everything "viewed as" the right to keep and bear arms. I don't think you can legally own a nuclear missile anywhere in the US, even in Texas.
Which part of taking someone's picture is speech, anyway? I didn't see that in the first amendment.
Ban on nukes is an infringement but not as egregious as the ones in Europe. In another comment I admit for instance Yemen and Idlib have a stronger right to bear arms than the US. I absolutely acknowledge this.
US also has free speech issues. For instance, libel has civil penalties I disagree with. However not being able to post a photo I took of someone in public for me is completely intolerable and barbaric, and a harassment against people exercising right to free speech. Opinions differ so I'm pretty pleased with Germany doing their thing and me doing mine and never stepping foot on their soil.
Well, according to the two sources I'm familiar with, it's not necessarily the _current_ laws that are the most concerning, but rather the _direction_ things are heading.
History proves limiting free speech is a slippery slope. I can't speak for my EU friends, but for me, yes, it's very concerning to begin justifying why some speech is not OK.
It’s an odd phenomena to see someone refute personal observations.
Something to consider, a huge number of people feel personally alienated and under threat of harm by the current administration’s party rhetoric.
Those people may, bizarrely, value life and liberty over top dollar. The revulsion expressed on the matter of taxes may also seem odd to the people for whom paying taxes means the state can provide for their safety and wellbeing.
I'd say this is a self-fulfilling prophecy of the American social structure.
Sure, in America why would anyone move from State A to State B to get less paid and pay more taxes. The social conditions are (in a wide-stroke) the same.
This is ofc not the case if you move to say, Europe or SK/Japan. The amount of money you need to live a similar socio-economic lifestyle is different.
And we already know that many people don't put certain value to increased income past a certain threshold (people want to feel safe and well-off; not necessarily be a millionare). We are in the HN/US-Tech bubble so ofc it feels like "everyone want to be the next Zucc with their startup" but if you once leave that bubble, you'll notice that most people are not a over-fitted model to one metric called income.
I've run the numbers a few times for every EU tech-adjacent job I'm eligible for. Except for some opportunities in France, I'd have a lower proportional tax rate (and, except for in France, I'd have enough of a lower proportional tax rate that the free healthcare makes up the difference). The US doesn't actually have low taxes.
What it does have is extremely high wages, and despite my inclinations to the contrary I'm absolutely staying for the next year or three, but taxes aren't to blame there. A small number of tech oligarchs made that possible (FANG driving up wages for certain skillsets).
Economics are not the only considerations at play. Even if economic considerations do dominate, the social safety nets of many European countries offer attractive alternatives to their US counterparts, even as they existed before Trump. For instance, in the deeply flawed US health-care system you risk medical bankruptcy in the case of serious illness or accidents even if you do have insurance due to policy limits. Insurers will fight tooth and nail to prevent paying out claims. Some folks with chronic illnesses don't want to be tied to their high-paying jobs just so they can have good insurance and some healthy folks want a health insurance policy that won't disappear when they need it most.
Didn't mean for this to be a wall of text. Basically, money's not everything, and even if it was, it could still make sense for a lot of folks from the US to want to move to Europe.
Salaries must be weighted by risk. Right now, there is a high risk that researchers funded by grants or working in government labs will lose their jobs and faculty will lose their grants and labs. Industry researchers are in a more stable situation, even though layoffs may be more common than on the average.
And if we focus specifically on the academia, American salaries have never been that high. Sure the numbers in the paycheck are bigger than in most countries, but the cost of living is also high. Particularly because good universities are often in very expensive areas, such as California, New York, or Boston. I've worked at a foreign university where grad students on dual income could buy a starter home. Now I'm at an American university, where you need to be tenured faculty on dual income to afford a similar home.
Back when I was in the job market and looking for a permanent position, we had a rather silly government that did poorly justified budget cuts. Academic positions were scarce at the time. I was looking for a position in Europe, but I somehow ended up accepting an offer from the US. I had never thought seriously about moving to the US, but when you are in the academia, you learn to take the opportunities you can find.
That used to be the American advantage. You had a less competitive academic job market and higher chances of winning grants. The downsides were a bit lower position in the social and economic hierarchy than in Europe. And the American way of life, which is not for everyone.
Listen I'm not a supporter of this administration but what is this argument? As if there aren't also tons of tourists coming to America. Tourism has little to do with getting people to immigrate.
By the way, if anyone US-based is in this situation and wants to "defect" to an EU-job, send me a message, I can help you.