> Assuming $100 average profit, that's a $2M for 20k watches. Given the work opportunities that the founder and other employees have, that's not a lot of money for them to make in a year, and it comes with significant risk. Basically
Reading through the terms on the shop page, it seems they're preparing to (maybe) raise the prices at any time, and they'll ask you to pay more before shipping, if they end up raising the prices after you buy it.
Whoa didn't see this! What's the language you're referring to? I only saw the part about how either side can cancel without penalty and didn't read a threat of higher pricing into that bit.
I was excited and about to purchase one until I saw this "We might not ship the device unless you pay us more" thing. I get that the economy is very up in the air right now in the US, but sucks that seemingly ordinary businesses are losing international business because of it.
That reads to me as what they'll do if the import tariff situation changes, not if the company changes the price themselves. Which seems like a reasonable thing to say given the massive uncertainty around US economic policy at the moment.
Fair, and you're probably right. I've personally learned to be very cautious when it comes to statements like that though. There has already been additional tariffs, and since it isn't exactly defined, they could raise the price tomorrow based on that, "because it wasn't taken into account at the time" and so on.
Better to just wait until the whole drama blows over I suppose.
I think it's reasonable too, but it also means I don't want to pony up $150 now to potentially have the seller renege and (hopefully) refund me later. I can make use that $150 between then and now.
They have it very clearly written before you check out that you can receive a full refund anytime before it ships. You have to check a box saying you acknowledge this before completing your purchase.
I find what they’re doing very transparent from top to bottom. If you’re worried about it, don’t buy one. But if you’re worried they’re going to pull the rug out from under you, I don’t think you need to.
Yeah, it is transparent... that they may raise the price and undisclosed amount. There's nothing wrong with it but the terms mean I'm not interested in preordering. I'll wait until the final price is available. Why did this seem to upset people?
I don’t think they can legally raise the price and charge your card without communicating the adjusted price to you and letting you confirm. Someone correct me if I’m wrong on that but ultimately I think they still need you to agree to it explicitly.
If you wait until the final retail price is known, it's quite likely that you won't be able to place a retail order at that time, since it's a very limited run. There will probably be a few scalpers on ebay though.
By that logic the watch is a non-essential luxury good so you probably should use the $150 you have now in a more productive manner regardless of potential futures.
I am not sure I understand you. It's true, I generally prefer not to preorder as it means I'm essentially offering an interest-free loan to a company.
Sometimes I'll do it anyway for one of two reasons: to lock in a price that may increase later, or to receive an item earlier than I would otherwise, due to excessive demand.
I'm just saying that, at least to my sensibilities, the viewpoint that leads one to be concerned about maximizing the efficiency of 150 bucks over the next 4-5 months seems incompatible with the viewpoint that it would be reasonable to spend $150 on this watch at all.
But I recognize that everyone's a snowflake, so you do you.
A lot of people on HN whine “oh I’m not picking a side” and “I just want to get on with my life” and “I’m an island what others do doesn’t affect me” and other nonsense.
Sadly the damage these people are causing by their implicit support for the end of the modern world won’t fix the problem when America realises it’s making itself poorer, history shows countries double down.
It's good of them to consider this and be transparent, but I don't consider tariffs to be part of the price. The price is the amount the seller gets, not the amount they collect and remit to the government.
I think "price" is an imprecise term that could refer to the pre-tax/tariff amount or the post-tax/tariff amount. It would include shipping, if there is no other way to get the device (as is the case here).
But regardless, they're not saying they would increase the "price" (whatever that means), but just that if the tariff situation changes, then the customer will need to pay the additional tariff. This is the same as what would happen if a state increased the sales tax rate and they had to collect and remit additional sales tax. It just so happens that it's unlikely any state is going to sharply increase its sales tax in the next year, but there's a decent chance the tariff rate will jump. If the sales tax went up, I wouldn't consider that to be the company raising the price. Same for tariffs, in my book.
The difference between sales tax and a tariff is that the consumer pays the sales tax while the importer pays the tariff. In other words, I'm not presented with a "price + taxes + tariff." I'm presented with a "price + taxes" where the price is supposed to bake in the seller's costs (which may include tariffs) and a margin of profit. Likewise, if the price increases to allow for additional tariffs, I will also pay more in taxes.
And then you've got VAT, which yes it's the consumer's money that's going to paying it, but the headline price for consumers is the VAT inclusive price and the retailer (or importer, who may sometimes be a consumer) is responsible for paying.
Which means that in high-profile cases where the VAT rate is disputed, it's the retailer who is on the hook for the disputed amount. Recent examples being Greggs (a baker, who won their case, so no tax payable) and Uber (where I'm not actually sure whether it's finalised yet? But if they end up needing to pay VAT then it's going to be expensive).
Funny, aren't you USers used to not knowing what you'll pay for something because the advertised prices don't include sales taxes and administrative fees and whatever fees and service charges and tips that are not service charges?
Well in europe letting me know what the real price is only at the cash register and not when I check out the product in the store is as unusual as your problem with import duties :)
I think it may even be illegal for consumer prices. What they display or list in the contract is what you pay.
But on the other hand I'm used to paying import taxes separately when ordering something from outside the EU.
Yes, Americans don't know the exact price of the products in their cart between the 10min they put the items in their cart and when they check out. They know it will be a little more and they mentally budget for it.
But that doesn't have much to do with a price increasing weeks or months after paying for a preorder.
So you can mentally separate the price the vendor charges from taxes imposed by the state when you pick up in the store but not when ordering internationally?
Pretty much all tech purchases are implicitly international. During the last Trump administration we were madly spinning up additional manufacturing capacity in Vietnam, because the full tariffs on China, had they come into effect, would have doubled the retail price of an Oculus headset (which is a US corporation, just as in this scenario)
Haven't bought something from outside the EU in a while? They charge us at least VAT (maybe over a certain price, depending on your jurisdiction) :)
Large stores can afford to precalculate this and use a service that will handle taxes for you, small stores not so much so you may end paying it personally on receiving the package. But they can afford to precalculate it if the taxes are known in advance (usually starts at whatever your country's VAT rate is).
Now in this case, shipping to the US looks like it will be randomly taxed depending on the phase of the moon and how well Trump has slept last night, so this warning is fair. You can't expect them to absorb a 50% import tax if it's established tomorrow.
> Haven't bought something from outside the EU in a while? They charge us at least VAT (maybe over a certain price, depending on your jurisdiction) :)
Sure, and as you also seem familiar with, you know it's pretty trivial to calculate yourself when you place your order :)
So far, I've never bought something internationally, then before shipping the tax laws changed enough that the toll and/or tax payment was different than I expected.
Reading through the terms on the shop page, it seems they're preparing to (maybe) raise the prices at any time, and they'll ask you to pay more before shipping, if they end up raising the prices after you buy it.