Again, it literally doesn't matter. Game's gone. No-one will get punished for this because everyone knows it's a waste of effort and they'll be pardoned.
Well, as it turns out it is frontpage news. And I think there will be some eyes on it. I'm not claiming this a non-issue, but I find it unfair to say that this is a particular replican problem. I think it's government in general.
And I also notice that when I ask here on HN a critical question about the Democrats, I get flagged and downvoted. And if I ask a critical question about the Republicans, I get answers like "obviously".
When I ask the same questions in a more Republican focussed community, it's interestingly not the opposite. The Republicans don't seem to censor people that are critical about them, but they rather respond to it in a mature and factual way. I find that interesting.
Really? This is the most libertarian/right-adjacent tech forum I've seen. Check out how many DOGE posts were "flagged" in Jan. Certainly felt orchestrated.
dang has detailed this before. After so many flags vs upvotes, a post is pushed to the bottom of the third page or top of four page of results. This is is before the [flagged] state is reached. You can often find highly upvoted but "politically contentious" submissions at position 90 or above.
[Edit: I interpreted "curated manually" to mean that dang picks each story that is on the front page. tptacek interpreted it to mean that, since users upvote and comment on stories, that's "manual curation". I interpret that as being "automatic curation", that is, an algorithm picks the front page stories, even though it's based on users' upvotes and comments. I cannot prove which of these two forms belter meant. Naturally, I prefer to think that it was the one I read it as, but I can squint hard enough to see tptacek's version.]
The logic is that people have flagged it, but not enough for it to be marked [flagged], which downranks it. dang, if notified or interested in it himself, could turn off flagging for this submission which would likely bring it back to the front page (given comment activity, age, and current score). You could email him and ask nicely.
You've been on this site for 4 years with 57k karma so you must be very active here, I'm surprised you don't know this yet.
It’s not about whether the person knows or not. It’s more about that the person can’t believe this is happening even if it follows all the norms that we’re all supposed to know about, apparently.
In other words, just because such a system could be used in this way, is it good that it is being used this way? That’s the energy this is coming from.
But I agree with your premise, even in its snark, none of us are stupid - we should already know.
It is (it's a combination of manual and community inputs) but almost certainly the reason this isn't on the front page is that lots of people flag stories about the Trump administration. I didn't flag this one (it's too juicy, and has a Signal connection) but I flag most of the other ones.
Why flag any and not just see what the community engages with? You don't have to participate in threads about subjects you aren't interested in, you know. And the expectation that this is somehow taking time from the community who would otherwise be engaging in threads you are more interested in yourself, is a little, well, self centered to me.
I'm going to keep flagging all of them, because these stories are all activating and attract tons of upvotes and comments, filling the front page with repetitive recapitulations of the same tired arguments. It's not what HN is for.
It's for discussing on-topic topics of interest to the community, where on-topic specifically excludes "most stories about politics", which is a very easy to bar to clear when the stories you're flagging are literally duplicative of stories with hundreds or thousands of comments on them already.
Because they are long-running discussions, it’s not repetitive. When we allow Rust or JS threads to keep popping up, it’s because we evolve with the topic over time and continuously discuss it.
What the HN shadow mod team is doing is killing the possibility of a long-running, evolving discourse on important topics.
Rust and JS threads are on topic for the site, most current events stuff is not.
is killing the possibility of a long-running, evolving discourse on important topics.
These topics have been the most discussed topics on HN the last couple of months by a massive margin. The quality of 'discourse' has been abysmal so we know empirically the 'evolution' theory/hope is misplaced.
> These topics have been the most discussed topics on HN the last couple of months by a massive margin.
Have any of these topics managed to not be censored via flagging? From my perspective, I have very much wanted to talk about these things on HN and despite checking multiple times a day I have never been able to engage in an ongoing discussion (by which I mean the post wasn't removed from the front page due to flagging, effectively limiting the visibility it would otherwise get from organic upvotes).
You're entitled to dislike these topics and to flag them. And I'm entitled to think you're actively making HN worse with your gatekeeping. The problem with flagging is it gives more weight to a smaller group. I don't know the weighing exactly, but I'd guess flagging is 10-100x more effective than regular voting. So in theory just 1-10% of people have the ability to censor topics they don't like. Kinda seems like the antithesis of what's "interesting" to me. And yes, I absolutely 100% would prefer contentious "go fuck yourself" arguments on politics than not being allowed to discuss it in good faith at all.
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy
The "smaller group" here is anyone with over 500 karma. You're going to have to find some other place to have "contentious go-fuck-yourself arguments" --- about literally anything --- because they are anathema to curious conversation, which is the overriding goal of this site. That goal isn't changing just because we're all activated about politics right now, just like it wasn't in 2017.
We just fundamentally disagree. From my perspective you are the antithesis of curious conversation by censoring topics you don't want to discuss. I don't want to read the latest update on some dumb framework but I don't flag the post.
So then it's not an equal flagging vs equal upvoting, it's fewer flags by fewer people being able to derail a post off the front page which may have been upvoted by 10x or 100x as many people as flagged it.
The fact that it's easy to get the ability to flag just makes it easier to abuse by people who want to censor certain topics.
It's worked this way for 1,492 years (in Internet years) and mostly for the best. When stories get flagged inappropriately, you email Dan, and he usually fixes it. Seems good to me.
Because it's very longstanding precedent, you're going to have to do more than just notice it out loud for the first time to change it.
For what it's worth, I didn't just not flag this story, or even just upvote it; I submitted it (and was beaten to the punch). It's a good HN story! But I can absolutely understand why the Trump-Story-Flaggers would have reflexively flagged this story. These threads are incredibly tedious and corrosive to the community.
I realize this website has operated more or less the same for a long time. But as it becomes increasingly popular it's going to become a bigger target for abuse by people wanting to push a narrative. I'm just commenting on why it's been more frustrating for me lately than it has in the past.
There is no correct answer to this problem. I'm just critiquing it in its current form and explaining why, to me (and many other people who have complained about it recently), it's getting worse.
Another thing it's been it's been for a long time is "increasingly popular". If anything, groupthink and common narrative are easier on a smaller site.
There's this strain of navel gazing on this size where people think that they talk about productive shit and this is somehow a better site than other social media sites because 'we don't talk about politics or celebrities, we talk about curiousity!'
But people on HN upvote and argue about California zoning laws or San Francisco drug policy here, AI policies from the US federal government or the DMA from the EU. Or the SLS rocket. It's all politics.
Sam Altman and PG are the celebrities here, not the Kardashians and people never stop talking about poops on San Francisco streets as if this is an important issue for the US or international community of the site.
'political' is just used as a euphemism for 'taboo' and there are many unspoken taboos about what is talked and not talked about here.
I'll tell you the new argument about this dynamic -- the US is tanking hard and the influence of sites like HN is going to wane and will inevitably be replaced by European sites.
People outside of the bay area and outside of the US are tired of this crap.
> I'll tell you the new argument about this dynamic -- the US is tanking hard and the influence of sites like HN is going to wane and will inevitably be replaced by European sites.
I'd much prefer it be replaced by something led/focused/moderated out of the Global South....if I didn't loathe the idea of doing content moderation myself, maybe I'd fire up a HN-clone marketed in those other regions...
I'm totally down with that, I just think that it will probably originate from Europe because of inertia with money.
If anything it'll be from some middle ground in that it will originate from a country like Estonia that has a lot going on with startups and the whole digital democracy thing figured out.
Don't threaten me with a good time! I'd love it if there were more places like HN. I like Lobsters, but it's too insular. Start Euro-HN!
I think Dan is an amazing moderator, one of the all-time greats, but there are lots of different moderation arrangements that can work, and different goals for forums to have. What I like are forums! Not just this forum.
These stories have been on the front page multiple times, yes.
You're entitled to dislike these topics and to flag them. And I'm entitled to think you're actively making HN worse with your gatekeeping.
I like these topics just fine. I don't particularly like them filling up HN because HN is pretty bad at them and it's bad at them in a pointedly tedious, repetitive way. "pointedly tedious and repetitive" is the most offtopic thing on HN. But for any story you feel should get more exposure, you can email the site mods and make the case for it. This happens all the time.
And yes, I absolutely 100% would prefer contentious "go fuck yourself" arguments on politics
Well, as you say, you're entitled to prefer that but that's not the sort of messageboard this is. But again, you can make the case for changing that but it seems pretty uphill. Yelly messageboards are a dime a dozen and many HN participants are here because this one is slightly less yelly.
Yeah everyone gets self righteous about being on topic when it's something they don't like, meanwhile hacker news is filled with cheap self promotion and pop culture news that people use as a writing prompt to have a competition for who can claim it impacted them the most.
Feels like the flaggers aren't the ones being self-righteous here. We're just flagging and getting on with our day. One of them took the time to explain what they were doing for you, and, well, (looks around).
One of them took the time to explain what they were doing for you
They took their precious time and explained it just for me? I thought you said "We're just flagging and getting on with our day."
You might want to (looks around) and count up your, well, comments. Seems like you're trying to claim both not caring at all and benevolent enlightenment, which is, well, a little self righteous.
I do care! I'm just not feeling especially self-righteous about it. I can reliably report how the site works, without composing Rage Against The Machine lyrics in the process.
That was likely just a generic wave at the general level of histronic hairshirt brigading on either side of the aisle that threads of political nature can attract.
Admittedly I have little talent for extracting wasps from stings in flight.
Semantics. By knowing what meat to reveal amongst a group of tigers, you can effectively moderate the feeding frenzy. Some meat you keep hidden, lest they go nuts on each other for it.
