> But I think that's exactly where suicide and euthanasia are different, where you claim they are synonyms. Euthanasia is for people that are suffering, in pain, and cannot get better. Suicide, in the context of depression and other mental illnesses, is for people that are suffering, in pain, and can get better.
I'm sorry, but where did you find the Guidebook To Life that lays out the precise rules of what is and isn't an acceptable time for suicide? And what is the reason we should follow the advice in this book as opposed to some other book that says the exact opposite?
Regarding mental illness, that is in fact some of the worst type of illness you can get (I personally feel it is the worst type). You can carry on just fine without an arm or a leg (or no arms and no legs![1]), but mental illness is a monster that will truly crush the very core of your being and make life agony 24/7.
Now you come along and say, "But wait! It Gets Better™!"
Except that's not true.
What you mean to say is: "Wait, it might get better!"
Except, depending on the mental illness, the chances of it getting better in any meaningfully amount of time can be zero.
There are different levels of depression, for example, and many people who say they've been depressed haven't actually experienced depression at its worst. Depression is one of the worst "illnesses" that can happen to you (at its extreme), and it _will_ kill you if it's severe enough (by getting you to kill yourself).
The type of agony associated with such a disease is unimaginable to someone who hasn't experienced it, and isn't even necessarily recallable to someone who experienced it in the past, but it is real, and you'd better respect the person who tells you that they want to kill themselves.
In such situations, I believe that the "right answer" (if there is one), is the one the person chooses to make, whether it is to kill themselves, or not. The possibility of their situation improving is not in any way a justification for them to continue the very real and immediate torture that they're going through.
At that point it's up to them whether there is anything left that they want to continue staying alive for or not. That's a decision that they have to make, and I respect it, regardless of what they choose.
I feel we're approaching this topic in very different directions. Let me rephrase both arguments, and let me know if I've rephrased correctly or not.
Your point is; how can you call suicide a bad or evil thing if it relieves pain and suffering in exactly the same way that the traditional definition of euthanasia does.
My point is; suicide prevention isn't just about demonising suicide, the act, but about helping people not get to the point where they feel/know that suicide is the only option.
Suicide/euthanasia is a tragedy. It means that we, as a society, have failed someone. Whether that is an inability to cure cancer, or cure depression.
I'm not qualified or experienced enough to really comment on the rest, so I'll leave it at that.
Your point is; how can you call suicide a bad or evil thing if it relieves pain and suffering in exactly the same way that the traditional definition of euthanasia does.
I very much appreciate you reaching out in such a way. It helps to know that we're working toward
an understanding of perspectives, instead of arguing. Thank you.
That is not quite my point. I do accept the possibility of a "dishonorable" or "reckless" suicide, but I suspect such cases are the exception, rather than rule, given the significant taboo suicide carries today.
My point is; suicide prevention isn't just about demonising suicide, the act, but about helping people not get to the point where they feel/know that suicide is the only option.
Re: "isn't just about demonising suicide", the demonization of suicide is one of the key issues that I was getting at in my post. It hurts everyone involved. Family members wake up one day only to find their loved one dead all of a sudden. This happens because of said demonization. It wouldn't happen if suicide weren't illegal, if people weren't locked up against their will when they say they are suicidal, etc. A suicidal person should be free to talk about killing themselves with those close to them without fear of loss of liberty, social ostracization, and chemical rape. A son, father, daughter, mother, wife, husband, should be able to speak openly with their family about wanting out. Unfortunately, it seems our society is not mature enough for such conversation, and thus suicide becomes an agony for all involved. The person who killed themselves went through extra guilt and agony, and those surviving are also left feeling guilty, indignant, upset, angry, depressed, etc.
It doesn't have to be that way.
Re: "not get to the point where they feel/know that suicide is the only option", I can't comment on that without a concrete example. People get sideswiped and end up close to the edge. It can happen gradually, or very suddenly. Each situation is unique, and must be treated as such.
I'm sorry, but where did you find the Guidebook To Life that lays out the precise rules of what is and isn't an acceptable time for suicide? And what is the reason we should follow the advice in this book as opposed to some other book that says the exact opposite?
Regarding mental illness, that is in fact some of the worst type of illness you can get (I personally feel it is the worst type). You can carry on just fine without an arm or a leg (or no arms and no legs![1]), but mental illness is a monster that will truly crush the very core of your being and make life agony 24/7.
Now you come along and say, "But wait! It Gets Better™!"
Except that's not true.
What you mean to say is: "Wait, it might get better!"
Except, depending on the mental illness, the chances of it getting better in any meaningfully amount of time can be zero.
There are different levels of depression, for example, and many people who say they've been depressed haven't actually experienced depression at its worst. Depression is one of the worst "illnesses" that can happen to you (at its extreme), and it _will_ kill you if it's severe enough (by getting you to kill yourself).
The type of agony associated with such a disease is unimaginable to someone who hasn't experienced it, and isn't even necessarily recallable to someone who experienced it in the past, but it is real, and you'd better respect the person who tells you that they want to kill themselves.
In such situations, I believe that the "right answer" (if there is one), is the one the person chooses to make, whether it is to kill themselves, or not. The possibility of their situation improving is not in any way a justification for them to continue the very real and immediate torture that they're going through.
At that point it's up to them whether there is anything left that they want to continue staying alive for or not. That's a decision that they have to make, and I respect it, regardless of what they choose.
[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=nick+vujicic